Camming related political rant (sorry)

[Ms_Gingersnatch]

So, I'm reading an article about how white supremacists are being kicked off of such services as GoDaddy, Google, Facebook, and PayPal (note that these are all private companies, not the government). Of course, the white supremacists are upset about it and claim that that's an infringement of their right to free speech. Richard Spencer, a notorious white supremacist who spoke at Charlottesville, said, "Getting kicked off Facebook or YouTube or PayPal or whatever, this is effectively losing the ability to speak. It is actually a more powerful form of censorship than were a government to censor." Apparently a lot of liberals agree with him on this issue.

The thing is, you know who isn't really welcome on Facebook, PayPal, YouTube, Google ads, etc.? Cam models and other legal sex workers (yeah, we can sneak on there initially, until someone notices or complains, and then they permanently close our account for undisclosed reasons). We also have a limited number of companies that will host our sites, and our options for collecting money are frustratingly narrow and often inadequate.

WTF is wrong with this society that we're fine with Paypal and "family-friendly" social media blocking access to people that legally spread love, legs, and nudity, but when a fucking hate group gets kicked off and starts bitching about it, we'll question whether there's a free speech issue? Would we rather have kids encounter a bonafide hate group on FB than see some cleavage, or even a vagina? Is Paypal happier facilitating white supremacists and Nazis raising funds than having a cam model make a legal living spreading joy and orgasms? SO MUCH WTF!!!

I'm sorry, but if you make the "think of the children" argument against cam models/porn/sex workers on the mainstream internet, but then you invoke free speech regarding hate groups having mainstream access, frankly, you're a bad parent. If you have to pick between your kid seeing 10 hours of porn or 10 minutes of hate speech, I don't think there should be much debate.

Seriously, if America is going to insist that FB and PP access are a part of free speech for Nazis, but they don't give legal sex workers equal access, I will need to scream into ALL the pillows, and then find whatever witchcraft will make dicks wither and fall off en masse.

 

[fandango]

I agree fully. Americans have a crazy attitude to sex that I really don't get. How is a boob more dangerous to a child than some crazy Nazi spewing his bull shit about race wars and whatever.

I think it should be totally illegal to discriminate against any group of people as long as what they are doing is legal. As much as I hate white supremacists I don't want big companies to start becoming the morality police. There should be laws that they have to provide whatever service to whatever legal activities want it.

It's a slippery slope and today they ban nazis, they already ban sex workers and who knows what fringe groups might be next to fall foul of some supposed moral threshold.

 

[Luckyfoxxy]

No sure what liberals you hang around, all my fellow centrists are being very anti-nazi since Charlottesville.
But our situation is definitly for no good reason overly complex - pay processors are especially an offender. Paypal has an absolute crap reputation when it comes to trading on ebay for the same reasons they deny us service - frequent chargebacks.

 

[Ms_Gingersnatch]

No sure what liberals you hang around, all my fellow centrists are being very anti-nazi since Charlottesville.

No, it's not that they're agreeing with Nazi sentiment, but that the worry is "Well if they can kick people off for being a Nazi, what if they decide one day to ban people who are pro-gay-marriage or [whatever their own cause is]." I do sort of agree with that, but it irks me that they've already done that to certain groups of people, namely us. This isn't a new thing at all, and no one gives a fuck about those of us that are already unwelcome for less-unsavory reasons.

But our situation is definitly for no good reason overly complex - pay processors are especially an offender. Paypal has an absolute crap reputation when it comes to trading on ebay for the same reasons they deny us service - frequent chargebacks.

Maybe the best way to hit Nazis where it hurts is to have a mass campaign of donating on paypal and then doing chargebacks. #NotCoolLikeIndianaJonesButStill

 

[Just_A_Guy]

I fuc*king hate nazis and fascists. And thats all I have to say.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

If you have to pick between your kid seeing 10 hours of porn or 10 minutes of hate speech, I don't think there should be much debate.

I agree. Anyone raising kids ought to say "Uhhh, neither."

This nazi/fascist/white supremacy shit going on now is a moral panic. A big distraction.

At any rate, you mentioned Facebook, just thought I would share this alternative. I don't know where it is headed, or if it is worth anyone's time, but might be something to investigate.
https://www.minds.com/Sexydea

I fuc*king hate nazis and fascists. And thats all I have to say.

Spoiler

 

[Just_A_Guy]

@justjoinedtopost
Thank you. I like to keep it simple.
I'm from Europe so we know these ppl very well. In my country, for instance, we have constitutionals laws against these fuckers and their propaganda, thats why you can't easily pull the "free speech" card.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

@justjoinedtopost
Thank you. I like to keep it simple.
I'm from Europe so we know these ppl very well. In my country, for instance, we have constitutionals laws against these fuckers and their propaganda, thats why you can't easily pull the "free speech" card.

May I ask what country?

Maybe simple suffices for your current situation. I have no idea about Europe; the most I have read about the 'nazi' movements there has been with regards to the Ukraine, and I have no way of knowing how much of what I read is true.

I also don't know what to make of the reports I hear (reportedly from Europe) about hate speech laws being used against the citizenry when they ought not.

 

[SMuser69]

So, I'm reading an article about how white supremacists are being kicked off of such services as GoDaddy, Google, Facebook, and PayPal (note that these are all private companies, not the government). Of course, the white supremacists are upset about it and claim that that's an infringement of their right to free speech. Richard Spencer, a notorious white supremacist who spoke at Charlottesville, said, "Getting kicked off Facebook or YouTube or PayPal or whatever, this is effectively losing the ability to speak. It is actually a more powerful form of censorship than were a government to censor." Apparently a lot of liberals agree with him on this issue.

The thing is, you know who isn't really welcome on Facebook, PayPal, YouTube, Google ads, etc.? Cam models and other legal sex workers (yeah, we can sneak on there initially, until someone notices or complains, and then they permanently close our account for undisclosed reasons). We also have a limited number of companies that will host our sites, and our options for collecting money are frustratingly narrow and often inadequate.

WTF is wrong with this society that we're fine with Paypal and "family-friendly" social media blocking access to people that legally spread love, legs, and nudity, but when a fucking hate group gets kicked off and starts bitching about it, we'll question whether there's a free speech issue? Would we rather have kids encounter a bonafide hate group on FB than see some cleavage, or even a vagina? Is Paypal happier facilitating white supremacists and Nazis raising funds than having a cam model make a legal living spreading joy and orgasms? SO MUCH WTF!!!

I'm sorry, but if you make the "think of the children" argument against cam models/porn/sex workers on the mainstream internet, but then you invoke free speech regarding hate groups having mainstream access, frankly, you're a bad parent. If you have to pick between your kid seeing 10 hours of porn or 10 minutes of hate speech, I don't think there should be much debate.

Seriously, if America is going to insist that FB and PP access are a part of free speech for Nazis, but they don't give legal sex workers equal access, I will need to scream into ALL the pillows, and then find whatever witchcraft will make dicks wither and fall off en masse.

But here's the counter business argument. If what you said didn't exist do you think camming would be a lucrative as it is now? One fundamental things that allows camming to make profit is the blacklisting of it in the culture. The risk vs reward increases the profit margin.

Let's say charging for sex was as normal as children going to school. The price I pay for a cam session might become the price I pay someone for actual sex in person. It's like when camsite eclipses phone sex so now on average it has to be cheaper than a cam session in general to remain competitive.

It's a catch 22 because this is the industry that functions as long as the taboo exists. Drug dealers don't sell weed but even more dangerous stuff when marijuana is legal.

I understand what you're saying about the equality of the situation, just this is circular argument because change would hurt you as much as the status que does.

 

[Fatquack]

Camming is still big business in countries where prostitution is legal.

 

[SMuser69]

Camming is still big business in countries where prostitution is legal.

This is about members not models. The majority of members come from places where there's either a illegality or cultural taboo or both. You could have 1000 models available but you'll make zero money without one member.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

@justjoinedtopost
Sure. Italy.
Recently the owner of a little bathouse had its bussiness shut down by the police because of his fascist propaganda. Plus, I quote, it's a crime to propagate ideas based on racial superiority or racial or ethnic hatred, or to instigate to commit or commit acts of discrimination for racial, ethnic, national or religious motives. You may get a fine up to 6.000 Eur or up to 4 years in jail. We dont have KKK bullshit here.

 

[Fatquack]

This is about members not models. The majority of members come from places where there's either a illegality or cultural taboo or both. You could have 1000 models available but you'll make zero money without one member.

I meant members too. In many countries in Europe prostitution is legal and there are plenty of members there that spend money on cams.

 

[SMuser69]

I meant members too. In many countries in Europe prostitution is legal and there are plenty of members there that spend money on cams.

Your taking an either or stance on this. If you watch porn doesn't mean you will not have sex with another person or vice versa. And even if it's legal that doesn't remove the social stigma and bias associated not to mention in the case of prostitution there's still a difference between legal and regulated which adds some public health restrictions to the practice. It was legal to drink while pregnant however there's a massive stigma against it since it can cause massive risks to the child.

 

[JickyJuly]

I'm fine with companies deciding whether to allow adult performers use of their services. Our occupation is not a protected group, and it shouldn't be. Being a camgirl is a choice. Occupations are not equal to races, gender identities etc (i'm looking at you BlueLivesMatter). What I do wish we'd start teaching these folks, whether they're Nazis or Liberals or Strippers is what freedom of speech actually means.

Want to kneel during the national anthem? You have freedom of speech and won't be ARRESTED.
Want to talk smack about the President? You have freedom of speech and won't be ARRESTED.
Want to peacefully protest in appropriate areas at appropriate times? You have freedom of speech and won't be ARRESTED.

In no way are you protected from being fired, disliked, banned from a private company etc. for your opinions or actions. Facebook can ban folks just like Amber can ban them here. We aren't entitled to anything outside of not being thrown into a jail cell.

 

[Bocefish]

Methinks most Americans are brainwashed to judge things on the PG13, Rated R for whatever reasons, system... and when that system gets challenged in their own brainwashed beliefs, they feel their rights to gripe are justified... free speech, or not.

Yet 'Game of Thrones' is one of the most watched shows, go figure.

 

[SophiaSophia]

lot of good points made all the way around in this thread.

I recognize the taboo on boobs makes them lucrative- I recognize the slippery slope of restricting opinion and how potentially dangerous it can get when you allow unfettered opinion what I DON'T understand is how people seem completely incapable of looking at anything from anyone else's perspective and man, even when someone is on the wrong side of things (like neo-nazis) there's no open exchange of ideas. There's no consideration for the fact that may be that person entire social structure up to that point- they're sticking with their herd.
The sex worker says..man- boobs! who doesn't love boobs?! well..maybe muslims in public places- are you infringing on their freedom of religion? who doesn't love spread legs? honestly- I'm very open with my kids about sex but to have my kid see total strangers have sex? I might not be ok with that
does it portray misogyny? do I want my daughter to think thats ok at this stage in their life before they know that might be a controlled environment?

idk- censorship is a delicate thing

I hate the hate groups- I hate that consenting adults are shamed in legal sex work but ultimately, fb is a business, paypal is a business- they get to set up their own product what they cant do is discriminate against their employees and I draw the line with medical businesses drawing up their "product" in a manner that discriminates against their customer but as horrible as it is- a business should have some say in how they handle their product.

 

[Deleted member 37064]

Too many people get hung up on one political side or the other and only complain about the opposite. Yet, they fail to understand that they, may very well in fact, be doing exactly what they are accsing others of doing.

 

[Lucid1]

I hate the hate groups- I hate that consenting adults are shamed in legal sex work but ultimately, fb is a business, paypal is a business- they get to set up their own product what they cant do is discriminate against their employees and I draw the line with medical businesses drawing up their "product" in a manner that discriminates against their customer but as horrible as it is- a business should have some say in how they handle their product.

All I know is if we continue in the direction we are headed, the Constitution isn't going to be worth the parchment it's written on. Where does it end? In some big Utopian circle-jerk where we all smoke from the same peace pipe, where the Constitution is publicly burned like the many civil-war statues that are being torn down? Is there any doubt from anyone here that Political Correctness, run amok, is the catalyst that is driving most of our current ills? What happens to our history in such an environment? One hundred years from now; what will our children learn about the civil war? What will they learn about the Jim Crow era, where a majority of these very statues were put up in the south as a "football spike" in the face of blacks? I'm glad they are being taken down, but I am not ready to embrace the mechanisms and political ideology behind the reasoning for their removal, because if I do, then tomorrow the Washington monument, Statue of Liberty...etc...could become fair game if the same fear tactics, physical intimidation and political correctness driven rhetoric are allowed to be used in their condemnation.

I respect the consideration that Ms_Gingersnatch put into her OP, but many of her points fall on my deaf ears because of the inherent entitlement she is expecting with the operation of a business. If she wants to go out and change minds and peacefully influence her own social circles to be more accepting of the camming/sex worker profession, then by all means I encourage her to do so. I enjoy the web-camming business as a customer, and I am glad that it exists considering my age and physical ailments. I appreciate the ease-of-use and availability of sites that offer these services. But as JickyJuly accurately states above, a chosen occupation should never receive the status of a "protected group".

 

[SMuser69]

All I know is if we continue in the direction we are headed, the Constitution isn't going to be worth the parchment it's written on. Where does it end? In some big Utopian circle-jerk where we all smoke from the same peace pipe, where the Constitution is publicly burned like the many civil-war statues that are being torn down? Is there any doubt from anyone here that Political Correctness, run amok, is the catalyst that is driving most of our current ills? What happens to our history in such an environment? One hundred years from now; what will our children learn about the civil war? What will they learn about the Jim Crow era, where a majority of these very statues were put up in the south as a "football spike" in the face of blacks? I'm glad they are being taken down, but I am not ready to embrace the mechanisms and political ideology behind the reasoning for their removal, because if I do, then tomorrow the Washington monument, Statue of Liberty...etc...could become fair game if the same fear tactics, physical intimidation and political correctness driven rhetoric are allowed to be used in their condemnation.

I respect the consideration that Ms_Gingersnatch put into her OP, but many of her points fall on my deaf ears because of the inherent entitlement she is expecting with the operation of a business. If she wants to go out and change minds and peacefully influence her own social circles to be more accepting of the camming/sex worker profession, then by all means I encourage her to do so. I enjoy the web-camming business as a customer, and I am glad that it exists considering my age and physical ailments. I appreciate the ease-of-use and availability of sites that offer these services. But as JickyJuly accurately states above, a chosen occupation should never receive the status of a "protected group".

Her thread is a RANT she's not call for anything here just airing of thought. She's merely pointing out hypocrisy in the fact that society has put up more of a defense to combat legal sex work than it has in years to silence direct hate and racism.

 

[Lucid1]

I was responding to SophiaSophia, in case you didn't see the quote I was responding to. The last paragraph of my post was in recognition of Ms_Gingersnatch's post, not a condemnation of it. Two other forum members also point out the issues of her post in regards to business entities and the expectations she appears to have in that regard.

 

[Dan Epstein]

I don't know, ever since the riots in Charlottesville, my non Jewish friends keep saying to me that they're not Fascist, Neos, etc, and I'm like "Dude, it's okay, I know, can we have that beer now?".
As for webcam models, I can only say one thing for certain, no webcam model or performer will ever send my future kids to die in the battlefield, which is not something I can say about governments.

 

[DFT]

I can only say one thing for certain, no webcam model or performer will ever send my future kids to die in the battlefield

So you're saying webcam models can't be Prime Minister.... I kid.

Why are legal sex workers discriminated against on PayPal? The consumers of the content won't stand up against it. Try to take away guns or reproductive choice, people scream. Take away anything sex related and Americans figure "oh, I'll get it over there then". There's no off switch to the consumer, just changing the channel.

 

[Dan Epstein]

So you're saying webcam models can't be Prime Minister.... I kid.

Why are legal sex workers discriminated against on PayPal? The consumers of the content won't stand up against it. Try to take away guns or reproductive choice, people scream. Take away anything sex related and Americans figure "oh, I'll get it over there then". There's no off switch to the consumer, just changing the channel.

I would vote Sam38G for president any given day, I just need to be an american first As for what content is appropriate, I find it funny that people can have the whole family watch a Game of thrones scene with dogs devouring a person's face, yet they can't stand the idea of a webcam performance. Once again I forget my position as a payment rep and express my personal opinions out loud. Just let me know when I'm out of line please.

 

[SMuser69]

So you're saying webcam models can't be Prime Minister.... I kid.

Why are legal sex workers discriminated against on PayPal? The consumers of the content won't stand up against it. Try to take away guns or reproductive choice, people scream. Take away anything sex related and Americans figure "oh, I'll get it over there then". There's no off switch to the consumer, just changing the channel.

Because it's not globally legal. They don't want to be potentially locked out of future markets or deal with the PR of restricting later because they had to change policy to enter a new market.

 

[SophiaSophia]

I would vote Sam38G for president any given day, I just need to be an american first As for what content is appropriate, I find it funny that people can have the whole family watch a Game of thrones scene with dogs devouring a person's face, yet they can't stand the idea of a webcam performance. Once again I forget my position as a payment rep and express my personal opinions out loud. Just let me know when I'm out of line please.

you aren't out of line at all. I completely agree that people are ok with reprehensible acts of violence but sex is a scary uncomfortable subject for people and that's pretty messed up.
I could go down a complete rabbit hole rant about what society deems as acceptable vs what it doesn't is such a convoluted ball of patriarchal ideologies with a hard religious slant but whats the point- no one listens to each other.

not directed at Dan- but Im too lazy to grab the right quote before I lose my train of thought.

regarding the civil monuments- they aren't appropriate. they have never been appropriate. Comparing statues that were not only mass produced but erected with the intent to intimidate to the statue of liberty is a straw argument that basically boils down to "one public symbol=all public symbols".
I guess its weird that I know the Japanese attacked pearl harbor 12/07/1941 because there's no memorials everywhere for the kamikaze pilots.
Having memorials on important landmarks like battle fields is probably totally appropriate. Having monuments in front of a court house, erected during the Jim Crow era probably isn't appropriate.

 

[SophiaSophia]

Because it's not globally legal. They don't want to be potentially locked out of future markets or deal with the PR of restricting later because they had to change policy to enter a new market.

i think its actually the high percentage of charge backs that occur in the sex industry more than anything but I could be wrong.

 

[SMuser69]

i think its actually the high percentage of charge backs that occur in the sex industry more than anything but I could be wrong.

Any internet based industry is high risk for chargebacks. People were using chargebacks to steal thousands of game keys a day through Steam for example. Any virtual product has a high risk factor. You hear about 3 of the top 10 Twitch.tv highest tips were chargebacks.

 

[Gen]

i think its actually the high percentage of charge backs that occur in the sex industry more than anything but I could be wrong.

I agree and then wonder why that's not an okay reason to say "don't use this for selling adult services". Camgirls don't want to use a service that so easily allows chargebacks, and frankly if I worked for PayPal or Amazon I'd be saying no to sex workers too because it seems like a lot of hassle for an industry full of deceiving and scamming (I say that with love). It seems like people always want to use the cheapest service but also want the protection they'd get with a service dedicated to adult services.

Any internet based industry is high risk for chargebacks. People were using chargebacks to steal thousands of game keys a day through Steam for example. Any virtual product has a high risk factor. You hear about 3 of the top 10 Twitch.tv highest tips were chargebacks.

Is that why Twitch started doing tokens (or whatever they're called)? Or did they chargeback on tokens?

 

[SMuser69]

I agree and then wonder why that's not an okay reason to say "don't use this for selling adult services". Camgirls don't want to use a service that so easily allows chargebacks, and frankly if I worked for PayPal or Amazon I'd be saying no to sex workers too because it seems like a lot of hassle for an industry full of deceiving and scamming (I say that with love). It seems like people always want to use the cheapest service but also want the protection they'd get with a service dedicated to adult services.


Is that why Twitch started doing tokens (or whatever they're called)? Or did they chargeback on tokens?

Bits have chargeback protections for the streamer so they won't know how much someone people are doing chargebacks. I'm pretty sure people still do try to steal bits through chargebacks like they do tokens. Bits are a 50/50 cut for most streamers and think it's less for affiliates.