SoTxBob said:
This is the saddest thing I have ever seen. This evidence of mass murder and treason on an incomprehensible scale.
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This is the saddest thing I have ever seen. This evidence of mass murder and treason on an incomprehensible scale.
Red7227 said:
Reminds me of the "the big lie"
All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation.
Mein Kampf, p. 134
while it might seem inconceivable, and suggesting anything of the sort for around 10 years has been career suicide and often social ostracism (in addition to being labelled a nut) but goverments have pulled too many similiar stunts, though not generally against their own civilians on such a scale, but the US govt itself has now openly admitted to fabricating naval engagements witn North Vietnamese gunboats in order for Lyndon Johnson to start the opening salvos of the vietnam war only DAYS later.
Now, that resulted in over a millon allied dead, most of them civilians, but over 65,000 US, Australian and New Zealand troops.
My question is, if that's a prefabrication to war, I think it's far to simply QUESTION the discrepancies about 9/11. Not saying it's not true but I believe a fairly intelligent gentleman once said:
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." I know some post 9/11 would say that's idiotic, unamerican and you all need to stand together on this. I encourage you to check who made these statements.
Now, that resulted in over a millon allied dead, most of them civilians, but over 65,000 US, Australian and New Zealand troops.
My question is, if that's a prefabrication to war, I think it's far to simply QUESTION the discrepancies about 9/11. Not saying it's not true but I believe a fairly intelligent gentleman once said:
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." I know some post 9/11 would say that's idiotic, unamerican and you all need to stand together on this. I encourage you to check who made these statements.
Most "conspiracy theories" are probably horse shit, but there could be a handful that are plausible mixed in with the craziness. I'd agree that many major news stories we hear are bound to be at best incomplete and sometimes just wrong. If you've ever seen a story about something that you happen to be an expert in, chances are you've noticed that some facts were either over-generalized or misinterpreted (probably more due to ignorance than intent to mislead). I wouldn't be at all surprised if the same thing happened with aspects of big stories, which, compounded, could cause reporting on some important things to be wrong even when the sources of information were completely forthcoming. Add to this cases in which representatives of governments or other interest groups willfully obscure the truth (which I'm pretty sure happens), and you get plenty of "news" that is garbage.
Still, stories or rumors about "conspiracies" are subject to the same sources of distortion, plus they are usually not even subject to the same standards for fact-checking that generally apply to news since they tend not to come from people who have to defend the stories (and may not even come from known sources at all). If I had to guess, I'd figure that proposed conspiracies that conceivably could have been hidden effectively by a small number of people are much more possible than ones that would require a large number of people hiding the truth. For instance (to totally make up two cases), astronauts *could* have placed naked pictures of Soviet officials on the moon without more than a few people knowing about it. On the other hand, it would be hard to claim that Japanese-made cars had a competitive advantage in the 1970's because they were actually chickens and hence required no steel to construct. Too many people had Japanese cars that were clearly not chickens plus there are plenty of people still alive who were auto workers in Japan in the 70's or know people who were. There is just no way that, among whole extremely large groups like Japanese auto workers and owners of Japanese cars, that there wouldn't be a significant number of people telling what actually happened if this were true. My examples are intentionally silly, and it's true that, in order for a conspiracy to be significant, there has to be some substantial benefit to the people involved. My point is that it's very unlikely that anything nefarious was carried out with the knowledge of a large number of people without being revealed because things just don't stay secret with so many knowing about them.
Still, stories or rumors about "conspiracies" are subject to the same sources of distortion, plus they are usually not even subject to the same standards for fact-checking that generally apply to news since they tend not to come from people who have to defend the stories (and may not even come from known sources at all). If I had to guess, I'd figure that proposed conspiracies that conceivably could have been hidden effectively by a small number of people are much more possible than ones that would require a large number of people hiding the truth. For instance (to totally make up two cases), astronauts *could* have placed naked pictures of Soviet officials on the moon without more than a few people knowing about it. On the other hand, it would be hard to claim that Japanese-made cars had a competitive advantage in the 1970's because they were actually chickens and hence required no steel to construct. Too many people had Japanese cars that were clearly not chickens plus there are plenty of people still alive who were auto workers in Japan in the 70's or know people who were. There is just no way that, among whole extremely large groups like Japanese auto workers and owners of Japanese cars, that there wouldn't be a significant number of people telling what actually happened if this were true. My examples are intentionally silly, and it's true that, in order for a conspiracy to be significant, there has to be some substantial benefit to the people involved. My point is that it's very unlikely that anything nefarious was carried out with the knowledge of a large number of people without being revealed because things just don't stay secret with so many knowing about them.
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
i can't speak for america, but our government consists of hundreds of wildly different people who couldn't agree on how to take a dump. to think that this "government" (why is it always perceived as a singular entity?) concerted some michael bay grade secret stunt on the entire populace is pretty hilarious. but then again i consume fluoridated water to ensure this thought process.
What I find interesting is, now that the rawness and horror has subsided just a little from 9/11, more and more people are actually questioning the things that simply don't add up. And it may be all bullshit, or there may be truth in it, but the bottom line is that either way people should NOT have been labelled nuts and unpatriotic for asking difficult questions.
One that i'm surprised hasn't come up yet, aliens/ufos. I saw this one documentary about a green alien with purple/red eyes that comes to Earth to destroy it and he has a robot helper who dresses as a green dog and took over my avatar...
Ok, to actual theories. The obvious one would be Roswell, the cover-up of a crashed alien ship and aliens. I've heard of a crash in Brazil and i'm sure there's plenty more but the only one i've ever actually heard of is Roswell.
And of course, the most famous and well known secret, Area 51.
Can't say i personally believe in either of the theories but i do find the Area 51 theories rather interesting, the secrecy around the base helps with that though lol.
Ok, to actual theories. The obvious one would be Roswell, the cover-up of a crashed alien ship and aliens. I've heard of a crash in Brazil and i'm sure there's plenty more but the only one i've ever actually heard of is Roswell.
And of course, the most famous and well known secret, Area 51.
Can't say i personally believe in either of the theories but i do find the Area 51 theories rather interesting, the secrecy around the base helps with that though lol.
Four reasons why people believe in conspiracy theories.
I consider most conspiracy theories and those that believe in them harmless, except for one. Anti vaccine people and theories. If you do even a rudimentary review of the peer reviewed literature or just look at some history, you will see the benefits so far outweigh the harm that there should not be a debate. I blame the internet and people too young to know the ravages of the diseases vaccines have almost completely eliminated for the current ridiculousness. I think public health should outweigh any one persons individual rights.
So, the next time you refuse a shot because you think you do not need it, remember the child, elderly person or immunocompromised person you might kill because you were in the same vicinity as them but too selfish to think of anyone but yourself.
http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/diseases/en/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc3291411/
BBC news this evening was about plans for rich, common plebs getting to visit the moon!
One of the very few occasions the news gives me a happy. As much as I have an interest in sending coke cans with iPhones taped to them to Mars ,someone has an, admittedly rather shit, plan to send rich non government agents to the fucking moon! Time to properly check out my favorite conspiracy ever - the x-shaped diggers on the moon churning the inside of the moon outside to make space for the alien base!
One of the very few occasions the news gives me a happy. As much as I have an interest in sending coke cans with iPhones taped to them to Mars ,someone has an, admittedly rather shit, plan to send rich non government agents to the fucking moon! Time to properly check out my favorite conspiracy ever - the x-shaped diggers on the moon churning the inside of the moon outside to make space for the alien base!
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Except the flu shot is KNOWN TO CAUSE MISCARRIAGES. Every pregnant woman I've known who's gotten the flu shot while pregnant, had a miscarriage within a month. These were otherwise healthy women with very low risk pregnancies.Just Me said:
I can't speak about other vaccines, but the flu shot is definitely not something you should get while pregnant. There are other ways to protect yourself and others from the clue. Using common sense is a biggie: wash your hands, don't cough or sneeze on people, don't walk around like a big cootie factory, if you have the flu then stay home, etc.
Other shots and vaccines I don't have any qualms with, but the flu shot just isn't safe for pregnant women.
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The problem I have is people hear these stories about the flu vaccine, and think it applies to all vaccines.
The chicken pox vaccine, I can understand giving to any kid after first grade who hasn't gotten them yet, because when you don't get the chicken pox as a kid, you get it later, and it can kill you later. But let the kid get it naturally if he/she can.
The chicken pox vaccine, I can understand giving to any kid after first grade who hasn't gotten them yet, because when you don't get the chicken pox as a kid, you get it later, and it can kill you later. But let the kid get it naturally if he/she can.
EasyBakeBabyOven said:
Please do not spread this false and harmful information. Anecdotes are not evidence. Correlation is not causation. The flu shot is safe for pregnant women. Or will it be said the CDC is part of the conspiracy theory and you can not trust the them? :roll:
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I'm going by what my PCM and OB told me at my last pregnancy check up. It is not safe for most pregnant women and is KNOWN to cause miscarriages.Just Me said:
Ginger and parsley are also known to cause miscarriages in the first and second trimester if ingested in large enough quantities, would you still tell a pregnant woman to eat those?
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
Even if ginger and parsley causing miscarriages is folklore with no scientific basis, the risk of NOT ingesting either of those food is zero, thus you can safely not eat parsley or ginger if you feel they may be of harm.EasyBakeBabyOven said:
With vaccines, it's a lot more complex. e.g., the theoretical risk of live vaccines during pregnancy exists, therefore it's a gamble the individual must decide on for them self. Non-live vaccines, for the most part (there may be SOME specific vaccines that can cause theoretical risk...so take in on a vaccine by vaccine advisement). In any case, the cdc does say that the risks to the fetus of flu virus far outweighs any THEORETICAL risks from the vaccine itself.
I'd ask for more opinions...like calling your state medical society, e.g.
I believe "little c" conspiracies exist, like Enron, Bernie Madoff, drug cartels, criminal organizations, and things like that. The daily news provides ample evidence that people can collude to benefit themselves at the expense of others.Evvie said:
But I'm comfortable believing "big C" Conspiracies are complete fictions. That's not to say that "little c" conspiracies can't have a very large, even global, impact. I just don't believe the Gnomes of Zurich are collaborating with the purple pod people of Alpha Centauri to use alien mind control in order to make us buy Elmo dolls, expose ourselves to "red yarn chemicals" and be chemically programmed to procreate and produce slave children (who also taste good with a plutonium glaze). I mean, come on. The Alpha Centaurians are vegetarians.
I would wonder though - what if the mother gets flu, wouldn't that also affect the child? I guess just do what you can not to come down with anything.EasyBakeBabyOven said:
I'd take my chances with the sniffles over this...
nvm that video is suspect lol...
but why do they push shots for free at CVS in urban areas? when... you can't get any other type of REAL help for your health hmmmm?? fishy... cause it's like money in the bank for cvs... you're more likely to get sick if you get the shot. never had it. never will
nvm that video is suspect lol...
but why do they push shots for free at CVS in urban areas? when... you can't get any other type of REAL help for your health hmmmm?? fishy... cause it's like money in the bank for cvs... you're more likely to get sick if you get the shot. never had it. never will
EasyBakeBabyOven said:
I was pregnant while working in a nursing home (where it's mandatory to get a flu shot because of the risk of spreading the flu to the elderly who can't fight it off) and was advised by the Director of Nursing, the head of Infection Control and my own OB/GYN and CNP to not get the flu shot.
The problem with getting it while you're pregnant is that you just never know how it will affect the baby growing inside you. I could read 1000 reports saying that it's completely safe to do and still wouldn't get it while pregnant. It's just too risky.
That's the only time I've ever skipped a vaccination. I've had all my shots, I get the flu shot every year, my kid gets all his shots (especially since I've seen first-hand the effects that adults suffer from getting chicken pox (shingles) if they've never had it before).
Nordling
V.I.P. AmberLander
Interesting that your OB/GYN doesn't believe the CDC, and as has been said...getting the FLU is MORE risky.AllisonWilder said:
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Not if treated properly and in a timely fashion. Actually it's a lot LESS risky than getting hyperemisis gravidarum. Even treated, hyperemisis is more likely to hurt (or kill) both mother and fetus than the flu is.Nordling said:
Nordling said:
She very well could agree with the CDC, we didn't discuss it at length. I should mention though that I had a September baby so I wasn't pregnant through the 'prime' flu season and that I was a high-risk pregnancy so these things could have all factored into her decision.
EasyBakeBabyOven said:
You PCM and OB are people too and while I would expect better from them, they are just as prone to conspiracy theories as others. I am not saying you should not take the advice of your doctors but at least make an informed decision.
Listeria has been found in uncooked meats, uncooked vegetables, un pasteurized milk, foods made from un pasteurized milk, and processed foods. Did your PCM and OB tell you to avoid those? How about driving to the clinic for a pregnancy check up? You are thousands of times more likely to loose a baby in a car accident than from a flu shot, but millions of people still drive to the clinic.
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Unfortunately for you, I'm a high risk pregnancy so I am not allowed to eat any of those things, I'm not allowed to drive (and am only allowed in the car if I HAVE to go somewhere) and I'm definitely not allowed to get a flu shot.Just Me said:
Thank you sir! For encouraging me to kill my unborn child. :handgestures-salute:
As it is, I'm lucky enough that I'm still alive after dealing with hyperemisis. The last thing I'm going to do is get a flu shot (which gives me over 50% of miscarriage according to my health history) and potentially kill myself and my baby. While you're listing off things I should do because of a conspiracy, why don't you get me a helmet, a full body padded suit and a safe room just so the rest of my gestation can be doubly more miserable.
ok, heres the southsamurai take on conspiracy theories in general. im writing while zomked on opiates, little sleep and benzos which should make it more fun indeed.
point1: every conspiracy is sort of real. theres some tiny tiny kernel of truth behind them. the problem lies in how tiny is this kernel. in other words how far does the conspiracy reach?
point2: the larger a group with a secret grows the less of a secret it becomes. was it ben franklin that said 3 men could keep a secret if two were dead? or am i miffing the quote there? point being that if enough people are involved then its not going to stay secret long. there will be leaks
point 3: for any conspiracy to be effective in keeping some "valuable information" secret or at least obfuscated then the number required to keep it so increase greatly, and the greater the information, the more people needed to maintain it over time.
point4:most conspiracy theories center aroung a large powerful group keeping a secret of some kind ( CIA,or other government ageny, illuminati, whatever)
now with those criteria being invlovled ( my process only, not sayin that anyone else need even care about my process) my response to most conspiracy theories is : so what?
if area 51 is loaded with aliens and their technology and the government keeps it as quiet as possible thru disinformation, so what? humans as a group are idiots. we tend to over react, and when we do we tend to overact with violence and destruction. lets say they threw open the gates out there in the desert and said " screw it, we're tired of keepin secrets" set up guided tours of the reptiailans and greeys and whatever, their ships and dead bodies floating in formalin, or hell walkin around exchanging meatloaf recipes ( the aliens sure do love killin cows... i assume they like meatloaf a lot) so what? what happens then?
if 9-11 was a canadian bacon flase flag type of thing then knowing that would be pointless now. yeah yeah, right to know and alll that, but could we change any of the actions we've already taken? would it return lives to those lost? would we miraculously say to the people of iraq and afghanistan: " jeez, so soory mate, but this was all a big hoax, we're just gunna bugger off home now, have a nice day"
my point, and yes i have on, is that once a conspiracy is in play its sort of useless to wonder about it. by this point any records of the kennedy asssasination are useless. after this long any document could be fake anyway ditto with the 9-11 stuff
right or wrong, if any conspiracy occurs it happens for one of a few reasons:
1 the people involved care deeply about the subject and wish to keep it from harming the general populace in some way. ok, i tend to prefer making up my own mind, but i wasnt there. they might be right to keep all that alien tech locked up at groom lake or whereever to keep it out of public hands. for me the only thing i trust less that the government is the population at large anyway, so please do keep it as secret as possible
2 the people involved either did, or are going to do something illegal, immoral, or otherwise impolite. my so what breaks a little here since the motivation for this is usually greed (be it for money or power ) and any time people get greedy they get dangerous. still if someone out there is capable of pulling off a massive conspiracy and make some cash off it, then i know im not up to pulling their plans apart, so its out of my personal ability to care much other than saying " interesting, mad skils on the mushroom treatment dudes"
3 the only kind of conspiracy i tend to get upset about is the small scale one. where a small gropup of people plot and scheme to kill, steal, or otherrwise harm indiviual people for fun or profit. now those buggers need to be dick slappeed hard
massive gocernmental conspiracies are out of my reach to discover truth, or effect change, so i just dont care. of course theres consporacies. big whoop in my book. there always have been and always will be groups of powerful and/or wealthy men using ther position for play games of some kind. if they're good enuff to not get caught, then more power to em. if the get busted, then take em down hard... cant have any morons in our illuminati screwin thing up lol
point1: every conspiracy is sort of real. theres some tiny tiny kernel of truth behind them. the problem lies in how tiny is this kernel. in other words how far does the conspiracy reach?
point2: the larger a group with a secret grows the less of a secret it becomes. was it ben franklin that said 3 men could keep a secret if two were dead? or am i miffing the quote there? point being that if enough people are involved then its not going to stay secret long. there will be leaks
point 3: for any conspiracy to be effective in keeping some "valuable information" secret or at least obfuscated then the number required to keep it so increase greatly, and the greater the information, the more people needed to maintain it over time.
point4:most conspiracy theories center aroung a large powerful group keeping a secret of some kind ( CIA,or other government ageny, illuminati, whatever)
now with those criteria being invlovled ( my process only, not sayin that anyone else need even care about my process) my response to most conspiracy theories is : so what?
if area 51 is loaded with aliens and their technology and the government keeps it as quiet as possible thru disinformation, so what? humans as a group are idiots. we tend to over react, and when we do we tend to overact with violence and destruction. lets say they threw open the gates out there in the desert and said " screw it, we're tired of keepin secrets" set up guided tours of the reptiailans and greeys and whatever, their ships and dead bodies floating in formalin, or hell walkin around exchanging meatloaf recipes ( the aliens sure do love killin cows... i assume they like meatloaf a lot) so what? what happens then?
if 9-11 was a canadian bacon flase flag type of thing then knowing that would be pointless now. yeah yeah, right to know and alll that, but could we change any of the actions we've already taken? would it return lives to those lost? would we miraculously say to the people of iraq and afghanistan: " jeez, so soory mate, but this was all a big hoax, we're just gunna bugger off home now, have a nice day"
my point, and yes i have on, is that once a conspiracy is in play its sort of useless to wonder about it. by this point any records of the kennedy asssasination are useless. after this long any document could be fake anyway ditto with the 9-11 stuff
right or wrong, if any conspiracy occurs it happens for one of a few reasons:
1 the people involved care deeply about the subject and wish to keep it from harming the general populace in some way. ok, i tend to prefer making up my own mind, but i wasnt there. they might be right to keep all that alien tech locked up at groom lake or whereever to keep it out of public hands. for me the only thing i trust less that the government is the population at large anyway, so please do keep it as secret as possible
2 the people involved either did, or are going to do something illegal, immoral, or otherwise impolite. my so what breaks a little here since the motivation for this is usually greed (be it for money or power ) and any time people get greedy they get dangerous. still if someone out there is capable of pulling off a massive conspiracy and make some cash off it, then i know im not up to pulling their plans apart, so its out of my personal ability to care much other than saying " interesting, mad skils on the mushroom treatment dudes"
3 the only kind of conspiracy i tend to get upset about is the small scale one. where a small gropup of people plot and scheme to kill, steal, or otherrwise harm indiviual people for fun or profit. now those buggers need to be dick slappeed hard
massive gocernmental conspiracies are out of my reach to discover truth, or effect change, so i just dont care. of course theres consporacies. big whoop in my book. there always have been and always will be groups of powerful and/or wealthy men using ther position for play games of some kind. if they're good enuff to not get caught, then more power to em. if the get busted, then take em down hard... cant have any morons in our illuminati screwin thing up lol
Just Me said:
It's pretty presumptuous of you to act like Rose has just been going blindly into this pregnancy and hasn't done any research or made informed decisions about her care and the care of her unborn child.
There's a list a mile long of things that a pregnant woman can't eat for one reason or another. Every OB, PCM, CNP, book and parenting magazine advises against consumption of most of these things.
and it was lucid, too :thumbleft:southsamurai said:
a few comments/counterpoints
funny you should make this point here, as it's one of those "kernels" that Tommy Lee Jones uses in MIB to so eloquently describe the reason we have such a love/hate relationship with conspiracy theories.
true conspiracy theories survive because they're romantic (even if they involve horrible things): they feed our imaginations, and we all wanna be in on the secret, and have a say in it's outcome.
which brings us to the freedom of information act, and the role it plays in feeding conspiracy theories.....because governments DO have secrets, as does industry, and there are people who work to expose them, whether it be the iran/contra affair, or reverse engineering a video card
they don't do it to change the past: they do it to change the future.....and they do it, because they, too, believe what Tommy Lee Jones said....imagine what they'll know tomorrow.
conspiracy theories invite us to look at our own lives, and to imagine a different one, and my take is that for many people who are their followers, they serve as a suitable shunt to redirect personal frustration.
hahahaha...exactly
we just need the impartial intergalatic court of alien justice to hear the case....because everyone on this planet already knows that those who make the rules are the same ones who are sentencing the ones among them who screw up
:lol:
but....there's always tomorrow....and things might change
EasyBakeBabyOven said:
No, thank you for reading things that are not there. Not once did I encourage you to kill your unborn child. I did not even encourage you to get a flu shot but I did point out the fallacy of your fears over getting one.
I posted current facts, not anecdotes and hyperbole. Here are some more.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/preg-guide.htm
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/influenza/AN00651
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