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Is Chaturbate in a State of Decline?

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Jun 27, 2017
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You just do not realize how the whole system is designed for guys like you. The girls are just the pretty looking and clueless tool that are there to create exactly the emotional dilemma that you just described perfectly. You're not "helping" the girl, you're helping the guy in the background. As a former girl from that system I'm telling you, we are specificially trained to attract "heroes" (look a bit sad, ask for help etc.). You're totally caught by this. In your defense you're not the only one, plenty of guys wanna "help" us. There are even more here in the forum than I expected when I signed up. Yes, the system works.

Do what you wanna do with independent girls. If you have a regional preference for Eastern Europe, there are plenty of independent girls from the region too.

You are making a good point to focus on independent models. The studios certainly never made any part of this easier.

But you ignoring that my case is a little different than the typical white knight story. I genuinely want to learn about the webcam activity, and I need these models for that as much as they (might) need me. When I see someone who I think could become a really excellent model, and with whom I have a great interaction regularly, that is actually a precious opportunity, and I am not really ready to discard that so quickly. In my eagerness to learn, will I overstep appropriate boundaries? That's a real risk for me. I am listening to anyone who has practical advice about how to navigate that minefield.

If you ever want to start another thread here talking about that studio system and what kinds of training the girls receive for finding "hero" types of personalities, I would love to read that. Point me to that thread. I would like to count up how many of those games have already been played on me, and you will probably save me a lot of grief in the future too.
 

dark_mermaid

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Oct 31, 2016
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I don't think there are any words that can change your thought of these girls needing you and them being the perfect project for you. You're trapped by the studio system. I totally do not believe you when you say when you have gathered enough knowledge that you will steap away, the next cute and clueless girl is being recruited right now I'm sure and will create the same dilemma for you again and again and again.

It doesn't take a lot of training to look clueless, because we are clueless, we're intentionally "made" clueless. If we were normally trained or prepared we wouldn't be attractive for you. After some days we're told that we should continue to look clueless, ask for help, look a bit sad, mention a token goal etc. It's enough to trigger heroes. "You need to make them fall in love with you and want to help you". I remember that sentence from my manager.
 

curvyredhead

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Apr 30, 2012
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New York Fucking City
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CurvyRedheadSexy
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ight

you sound predatory AF

It's not just your creepy terms and words like "create", "moving" and "project" or the lack of "empathy" you show (which btw I don't see anyone talking about the lack of empathy you show...so not sure why that is relevant)

You pitch this idea of "helping girls" who are "far from helpless" but you are not "teaching" anything difficult. Keep in mind these girls are supposedly are offered a plethora of knowledge (including information that you have zero access to)...but do not show the "slightest interest in signing up" even though you say "If people want something badly enough they find a way". But again..." far from helpless"....how far from helpless are we talking? a block?

You are using not just this forum, but a girls room, at her REAL job to gain information through what sounds like experimental tactics at her REAL life job. All for a business idea that you don't wish to share. You don't have a common goal. You are using the situation (and this girl's real life) as a case study to learn from for further business. Also lol @ all the references you made to how this "project" has dragged on longer than you like.

To answer the question about what payment this guy gets... it's $ for his services, or nudes, or the nonsense bs he said....he is getting attention from the model that is (to him) more meaningful. He wants that lil extra form of attention/communication/"goal" (pfft lol) that they can bond over together.


If the model asks me to help improve her results, I should always refuse?

Tip
Tip and direct her to ACF, Camgirlwiki, and the other forums
Tip

That's it. That is where your help ends.
If a model asks you to help her with something more specfic...edit a graphic, tech question..then..maybe?


But you ignoring that my case is a little different than the typical white knight story. I genuinely want to learn about the webcam activity, and I need these models for that as much as they (might) need me. When I see someone who I think could become a really excellent model, and with whom I have a great interaction regularly, that is actually a precious opportunity, and I am not really ready to discard that so quickly. In my eagerness to learn, will I overstep appropriate boundaries? That's a real risk for me. I am listening to anyone who has practical advice about how to navigate that minefield.

nah man i'm not a white knight, im a specific type of white knight....like a sub-genre of white knights ...lol

If someone says "This is too much" then I stop. If someone says "I want to go a different direction" I listen and adjust. Once I have clear communication, okay I am aggressive. But that is not carved in stone, and when someone says "stop" or "slow down" or "quit" I do that.

You have repeatedly been told to stop in this thread.

I hope that despite your predatory ways, the girls are tuned into the plot and are using it to there advantage. There is a classicly beautiful thing about two people using each other.
 

dark_mermaid

Cam Model
Oct 31, 2016
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nah man i'm not a white knight, im a specific type of white knight....like a sub-genre of white knights ...lol

This totally. The studio white knights NEED an exploitive studio or they lose interest. Exactly what you @Smores described. A well prepared girl is not interesting. It's egoistic as fuck. The girls are the tools for the studio boss AND all kinds of white knights or other heroes too.
 
Jun 27, 2017
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You are using not just this forum, but a girls room, at her REAL job to gain information through what sounds like experimental tactics at her REAL life job. All for a business idea that you don't wish to share. You don't have a common goal. You are using the situation (and this girl's real life) as a case study to learn from for further business. Also lol @ all the references you made to how this "project" has dragged on longer than you like.
So when her traffic goes from 50 viewers to 700 viewers and she doubles her revenue that means nothing?

Your world view is negative. You don't focus on results. Instead you look for problems and you create problems at every twist and turn.


To answer the question about what payment this guy gets... it's $ for his services, or nudes, or the nonsense bs he said....he is getting attention from the model that is (to him) more meaningful. He wants that lil extra form of attention/communication/"goal" (pfft lol) that they can bond over together.

I certainly would love it if working this way with models improved your relationship with them but at this point I think it makes the relationship less strong. You go from being a fantasy person that they had great conversations with - that were unstressful - to someone who they associate with hard work. I'm not getting dollars, nudes, or more bonding. I'm getting knowledge, and that is about it.

I hope that despite your predatory ways, the girls are tuned into the plot and are using it to there advantage. There is a classicly beautiful thing about two people using each other.

That's a sick way to look at life, but I also hope the models get what they want.
 
Jun 27, 2017
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I don't think there are any words that can change your thought of these girls needing you and them being the perfect project for you. You're trapped by the studio system. I totally do not believe you when you say when you have gathered enough knowledge that you will steap away, the next cute and clueless girl is being recruited right now I'm sure and will create the same dilemma for you again and again and again.

You are so not right about this. The next cute and clueless girl has presented herself in five different faces in the last month, and I am hiding from all five of them because there are shivers going down my spine at the thought of helping another one of those types of girls. The people I already help I will continue to help until they outgrow me or until I stop learning valuable things. But I do not think that will last more than six months.

I have realized that the only people worth trying to help are those who are willing to work hard for themselves, and that is something I will define further for myself another day. But that will have to be a business relationship with some business model where I make something for my time, and I am not eager to pursue this kind of project in any case.


It doesn't take a lot of training to look clueless, because we are clueless, we're intentionally "made" clueless. If we were normally trained or prepared we wouldn't be attractive for you. After some days we're told that we should continue to look clueless, ask for help, look a bit sad, mention a token goal etc. It's enough to trigger heroes. "You need to make them fall in love with you and want to help you". I remember that sentence from my manager.

If you want to share war stories some day in a thread here, I would love to read that thread.
 
S’mores, you come across as absolutely insufferable in this thread, and the puppet master act is weird and self serving. You clearly get off on attention so I won’t give you very much of it, but when multiple experienced models tell you something is ineffective and creepy you might want to put your ego aside for a second and listen to them.

If you were truly altruistic and truly cared about the models you want to “help” you WOULD listen, but you won’t listen because you don’t have the models’ best interests at heart.
 

Mila_

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mila_
choice of words

She is saying the way I express the ideas I make creeps her out.

That is the opposite of what I said. You say you want to improve but you don't listen. What I said is even though you WANT to make it sound noble and positive, your words BETRAY you. Meaning: in spite of that pretty coat of sugar you are wearing, your stitches are showing, pal.

My problem with you is you THINK of these models as objects. You talk about them as things. Just on this thread you said that you can create beautiful engaging things. You are talking about people here. You can give this a coat of paint in any color of the rainbow it doesn't change the fact that you don't see people as equals, as human beings, you see them as tools. You even take all credit for their successes, you keep doing this even though I already told you it was fucked up on another thread.

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 2.35.12 PM.png
 
Sep 20, 2016
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DJ_Pioneer
Typically we are growing viewer traffic in the room from 20 to 50 viewers up to north of 500 and finding the best ways to monetize that traffic. Why do we need to go into the 20 detailed steps from point A to point B? It was not even supposed to be the topic of this thread. Yet another derailment.
Because I don't think Chaturbate is in a state of decline, since other models have written in this thread that they have not experienced a decline so it might be what you do that is causing a loss of revenue for the models. Now can you please give a detailed account of what it is that you have done for the models you are helping?

For everything that works well, you do five things that do not work at all. That reflects my lack of experience. I learn the things that work and the things that do not work. I get some valuable experience from that. But it's experience about the customer behavior and what triggers that behavior.

I have never asked for payment, and I don't think any entry-level model has anything that would be interesting to me financially. I am usually one of her top 20 customers on a regular basis. Going into these projects, I would say it was 1/4 for fun, 1/4 because I really liked the models I helped and saw that they had huge talent but unrealized as financial success, and 1/2 because I wanted the experience.to use in the future on a possible project.
If only one out of every sixth thing that you teach these models works you are not teaching, you are experimenting.

If the model asks me to help improve her results, I should always refuse? No one should ever help other people? Really?

I think there is a really good point here on boundaries, but the boundary is not about do you help or not help someone who asks for help. The boundary problem is once she asks me to help, then how do I set appropriate boundaries around what I am and am not allowed to do. That requires really good communication both ways, and I feel like those boundaries are not being well communicated to me in some cases. How do I help the model to communicate and set those boundaries? I am all ears. I want to set appropriate boundaries after I start helping someone.
If multiple models here including @dark_mermaid who has actual experience of working in an eastern European studio is telling you that you are doing things wrong you should listen because they know what they are talking about.

You are so not right about this. The next cute and clueless girl has presented herself in five different faces in the last month, and I am hiding from all five of them because there are shivers going down my spine at the thought of helping another one of those types of girls. The people I already help I will continue to help until they outgrow me or until I stop learning valuable things. But I do not think that will last more than six months.

I have realized that the only people worth trying to help are those who are willing to work hard for themselves, and that is something I will define further for myself another day. But that will have to be a business relationship with some business model where I make something for my time, and I am not eager to pursue this kind of project in any case.
I don't think that the kind of cold and impersonal business relationship that you seem to be looking for is something that you will find on a cam site. Perhaps you should try and find a job as a stock broker you get paid a salary, the job is really impersonal and you get treated as an object by your bosses because you are only worth the amount of money that you bring in to them.
 

LittleLei

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Dec 29, 2014
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To answer the question about what payment this guy gets... it's $ for his services, or nudes, or the nonsense bs he said....he is getting attention from the model that is (to him) more meaningful. He wants that lil extra form of attention/communication/"goal" (pfft lol) that they can bond over together.

This is the opinion that I have formed from reading this thread and other S’more’s posts on this forum. Since he has said he is a top tipper for some of these models, he takes a break from tipping or contributing with money in exchange for helpful information. Stretch the dollar farther eh?

I’m sorry, as a seasoned web model, this whole thing gives me bad vibes. Good intentions heavily masked over something creepy and unsettling.
 

SaffronBurke

Cam Model
Jan 3, 2013
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Pluto
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saffronburke
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SaffronBurke
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SaffronBurke
Clips4Sale URL
http://clips4sale.com/store/62613/Saffron
I try to visit US models all the time, but when there are 400+ people there who all speak the same language as the model what is the actual point of it? It seems impossible to get to know the model as well as I want to.

So you can't participate in a model's room unless you're getting her undivided attention the whole time? Either start taking girls private instead of bothering them in free chat, or switch over to eharmony and get a freaking girlfriend, jeezus.
 

Gen

Inactive Cam Model
Mar 23, 2013
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So you can't participate in a model's room unless you're getting her undivided attention the whole time? Either start taking girls private instead of bothering them in free chat, or switch over to eharmony and get a freaking girlfriend, jeezus.
But he’s also trying to “create” models who get 500+ visitors so it’s almost like he only likes successful models if he can convince them that they rely on him, and not because he actually likes seeing models thrive.
 
But he’s also trying to “create” models who get 500+ visitors so it’s almost like he only likes successful models if he can convince them that they rely on him, and not because he actually likes seeing models thrive.
My thoughts exactly.

So Smores once the girls you "help" get 500 viewers do you stop watching them because you can't get attention and move the the next?

Because based on what you said there it seems like That's what you do.
 
Jun 27, 2017
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S’mores, you come across as absolutely insufferable in this thread, and the puppet master act is weird and self serving. You clearly get off on attention so I won’t give you very much of it, but when multiple experienced models tell you something is ineffective and creepy you might want to put your ego aside for a second and listen to them.

If you were truly altruistic and truly cared about the models you want to “help” you WOULD listen, but you won’t listen because you don’t have the models’ best interests at heart.

Then you simply did not read the thread. When Mila said she found any of this creepy - because I was referring to models as projects and objects to play with - I asked her to help me reword that. And I absolutely am listening and am ready to make changes in my language but is anyone in the thread interested in seeing me improve?

In a traditional webcam relationship, the model does some performance for money. The viewer has his needs met by this. The model's needs - for money or exhibitionism - are also met. In the case I describe, the model wants to improve her financial results by increasing the number of viewers who come to her show and pay her. I want to improve my knowledge. If she asks for help and I provide that and learn along the way, where is the harm in that? We both get our needs met. And why is it bad? Something good is happening to the model, not something bad.
 
Nov 7, 2016
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Okay, I am not a representative of CB, and I even work for a different website, I wanted to sit this one out, however, I can't watch you do this to yourself.
Affiliate marketing for webcam sites or adult platforms is not made in the session, or visit as a viewer. It's also not made as a part of the relationship between a model and a fan, it's simply not the same ball park.
If you know how to bring good, legal, and convertible traffic, you sign up as an affiliate, with links to the websites you already created, blogs, reviews, etc. Your job as an affiliate, is to funnel users to become paying users, and take your lawfully earned commission. Most will have a sort of a revenue share.
Your job as an affiliate however, is not :
-Interfering with how a performer do the work
-Interfering with where the performer does it, at home, or a studio.
-Interfering with the personal mental state of the performer.

I suggest that you start exploring vanilla affiliate marketplaces, like Clickbank, and gain some experience there first. Once you will be able to translate the ability not to be the knight in a shining armor of the vacuum cleaner distributor from Guangzhou in China, to a webcam model, you will be ready.
 
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Jun 27, 2017
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That is the opposite of what I said.

No, Mila, it is exactly what you said. You said my words betray me, which means you have a problem with my WORDS.

I am giving you every opportunity in this thread to make me a better human being. But you have no interest in me changing or improving. You simply want a platform to go off on me.

You want to believe that because I have poor word choices that this is some smoking gun into my personality and that I cannot possibly be changed, but that is wrong.


You say you want to improve but you don't listen. What I said is even though you WANT to make it sound noble and positive, your words BETRAY you. Meaning: in spite of that pretty coat of sugar you are wearing, your stitches are showing, pal.

My problem with you is you THINK of these models as objects. You talk about them as things. Just on this thread you said that you can create beautiful engaging things. You are talking about people here. You can give this a coat of paint in any color of the rainbow it doesn't change the fact that you don't see people as equals, as human beings, you see them as tools. You even take all credit for their successes, you keep doing this even though I already told you it was fucked up on another thread.

You do not know how I think about these models as human beings. You do not know my feelings about those models. That was not part of the thread.

And the model is not the project. The project is the model's goal to improve her show.

I acknowledge that I come across as too cold or factual when talking about the model's show. But that is scientist/engineer training and thinking.



You would an absolutely awful psychologist. Of those qualities, the only one I come close to is empathy. And my failure is not an ability to feel empathy because I feel enormous empathy towards others. My problem is language because I do not show empathy clearly when responding to people.
 

dark_mermaid

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Oct 31, 2016
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I wouldn't criticize you as harshly as I did if you did what you do with independent models. In that scenario the person who is responsible for the lack of knowledge is not profiting and in these kind of studios he is very likely even more profiting than the model and has zero motivation to change the shitty system.
 
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So you can't participate in a model's room unless you're getting her undivided attention the whole time? Either start taking girls private instead of bothering them in free chat, or switch over to eharmony and get a freaking girlfriend, jeezus.

I am there for high quality conversation. A model with this many people can barely keep up with her public chat and a few private messages. Why do I need to pay over $250 per hour to take her private and have a conversation with someone? I like smaller rooms with smart models who have time to engage in extended conversations. I don't mind sending her hundreds of tokens per hour for that, in the setting of the public chat room.
 
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Jun 27, 2017
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This is the opinion that I have formed from reading this thread and other S’more’s posts on this forum. Since he has said he is a top tipper for some of these models, he takes a break from tipping or contributing with money in exchange for helpful information. Stretch the dollar farther eh?

Except...the model is getting back more than I do. She is the one who financially benefits from more viewers. She is the one who benefits from higher retention rates on big spenders. How can you be so one sided and unfair?
 
Jun 27, 2017
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But he’s also trying to “create” models who get 500+ visitors so it’s almost like he only likes successful models if he can convince them that they rely on him, and not because he actually likes seeing models thrive.

That's not the way it works. Once the model becomes successful she becomes so busy with her show that she does not have time for the kinds of extended good conversations she had before she became successful. Most models probably won't even remember the people who helped them. If I only cared about the relationship, I wouldn't help them to create that kind of success. The other point is that I am teaching people how to fish, not handing them fish every day. If I actually do that, once she knows how to fish she doesn't need me any more.
 

Mila_

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mila_
No, Mila, it is exactly what you said. You said my words betray me.

Language is the vehicle of thought. You served me a turd on a plate, I complained. So the second time you put a bow on the turd. It is still a turd with a bow on it, I tell you. This time, your third attempt, you made a turd filling and put that in a cake. I still complain. You say my problem is the presentation. My problem is not the cake, the bow or the plate, it's the turd. Problem with your cake is the turd filling oozing out of it with it's very particular turd smell.
 
Jun 27, 2017
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So Smores once the girls you "help" get 500 viewers do you stop watching them because you can't get attention and move the the next?

It's much more bittersweet than that. The other day I was in one of these models rooms and she was so busy going back and forth between two webcam sites that she barely had time to respond to my private messages with more than a few words. So I told her that she was busy and I would leave and if she wanted me she could instant message me. She did send about four or five instant messages during her show, but it was all quick and shallow stuff.

I remembered when her room was her just staring at the camera and doing a few privates every day. We used to have long conversations about art, people, relationships, whatever. She used to complain that no one else was even trying to have conversations with her. There was a lot of bonding around that. Now the process that was started with her show has taken on a life of its own, and in the end I am going to end up road kill. But I will still help her until the point she is independent.

So the answer to your question is when the quality of the conversation declines, I leave. I have been in her room some times when there are 700 people and no one is engaging. During those periods we can still interact for short periods. But I do not think it will ever be the same again, and I have lost something I really valued.
 
Jun 27, 2017
1,094
579
113
Okay, I am not a representative of CB, and I even work for a different website, I wanted to sit this one out, however, I can't watch you do this to yourself.
Affiliate marketing for webcam sites or adult platforms is not made in the session, or visit as a viewer. It's also not made as a part of the relationship between a model and a fan, it's simply not the same ball park.
If you know how to bring good, legal, and convertible traffic, you sign up as an affiliate, with links to the websites you already created, blogs, reviews, etc. Your job as an affiliate, is to funnel users to become paying users, and take your lawfully earned commission. Most will have a sort of a revenue share.
Your job as an affiliate however, is not :
-Interfering with how a performer do the work
-Interfering with where the performer does it, at home, or a studio.
-Interfering with the personal mental state of the performer.

I suggest that you start exploring vanilla affiliate marketplaces, like Clickbank, and gain some experience there first. Once you will be able to translate the ability not to be the knight in a shining armor of the vacuum cleaner distributor from Guangzhou in China, to a webcam model, you will be ready.

Dan, this thread had nothing to do with affiliate marketing. The derailed version of this thread is about helping a model to improve her show in exchange for the experience and education
 
Nov 7, 2016
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The best way to improve a show is to tip, and if you wish to improve her overall feeling, tip her offline, buy a vid, subscribe to her snapchat, buy an item on the Amazon wish list. Retweet her live tweets under your profile, there are so many more positive ways to participate.
A large chunk of my day is dedicated to providing good traffic,marketing tools, and a positive boost to models. I don't do this by visiting their shows and ostensibly improving them.
The most important tokens in our industry are trust, and respect, whether as a viewer, a performer, or a service representative, like yours truly here.
 
Aug 14, 2018
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Dan, this thread had nothing to do with affiliate marketing. The derailed version of this thread is about helping a model to improve her show in exchange for the experience and education
then you could also say this thread has nothing to do with your self described "lack of empathy" and how you keep using it as a relevant variable. If i were you, I wouldn't have said 80% of the content you shared considering you know you have a language hurdle due to this empathy problem, because it is really hurting your overall argument. Maybe next time, instead of defending yourself, roll with the punches and glean what knowledge you can. In that same context, don't share your thoughts as much until after the overall goal of your plan has been seen through, because as it stands you are coming off as kinda defensive/guilty of a alterior motive despite the excuses you have provided. Even if you are honestly trying to help the models, the reasons and way you have been replying are not helping your case unfortunately. I would suggest looking at the entire post, evaluate your errors based off of the feedback, take them to heart, stop posting on this topic, more along to improving your communication skills on the forum and in your daily interactions, and try to take away something constructive instead of arguing/defending your actions. Don't take it personal whatever you do. Think of it as trying to learn to build a house, and you have been helping the contractor on the side successfully, then admitting what you are doing to a room full of experienced contractors. If they say wrong, it's probably wrong. If they approve, then you are doing it right, regardless of your successes. This is about learning and you are making it about you being right, is the way I am viewing all of your interactions on this topic.
 

paige_orion

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Nov 13, 2013
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213
Neverland
www.goddesspaigeorion.com
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paigexorion
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No, Mila, it is exactly what you said. You said my words betray me, which means you have a problem with my WORDS.

I am giving you every opportunity in this thread to make me a better human being. But you have no interest in me changing or improving. You simply want a platform to go off on me.

You want to believe that because I have poor word choices that this is some smoking gun into my personality and that I cannot possibly be changed, but that is wrong.

There are several reasons why people are not hurrying forward to change or improve you, helping you to become a better human being. Language is one thing, but that isn't the only thing that Mila or any of the other people are creeped out by. Yes, language gives insight into how people think, how they feel, how they view the world. That is why it is so powerful, and so useful. But changing the words you use will not change the nature of your thoughts or the actions that you take and the way they come across on the board. This goes beyond poor word choice - it is the nature of your actions which many find so unsettling.

1. The entire system of finding a newer or less successful girl to mold and train and improve. One of your previous statements seemed to indicate bewilderment that more people don't do the same... Or at least, imply that you are extra kind for stepping forward to find these girls & help them. Most people don't look at other models and immediately think that they need help. In my mind, doing so would be infantalizing these women, and that's more than a little bit insulting. We see them as women who are in charge of their own lives & their own business, who have all of the tools at their disposal, should they choose to do so. It isn't our business, to assume that they need help, or to assume that they need fixed or improved. Most people look at models as fun, entertaining humans who know what they are doing, or are adult enough to run their business the way they want to, without need of a manager or extrahelpfulfriend to control their show & improve their lives FOR them.

You say that they ask for help - and that might be right. But from all of your previous statements, it genuinely seems like you SEARCH for the perfect girl who would ask for help in the first place... And that's eerie on its own. Searching for the perfect target who will ask for help, who will allow you to make changes and experiment on her business, who will allow you to interview their regulars about how your girl can improve her show. It doesn't seem helpful or nice. It feels an awwwwwful lot like digital pimping, y'know? Put everything together, and that is how predators behave, and that is why so many girls are unsettled. If you were to look up predatory grooming behavior, almost everything fits. A) Find the perfect, vulnerable target. B) Gain information about them & gain their trust. D) Fill a need in their lives. E) Sexualize the relationship & get what you want. F) Control the target to continue getting what you want, as if the victims are merely toys or objects.

There is white-knighting, and there is legit, grooming behavior that comes across as predatory & unsettling. No matter what you say to explain your reasons behind doing so, your actions come across as very troubling to almost every model on this forum, and probably more than a few members. Which is why your words over the past few months (suggesting girls are toys, objects, projects) come across as EXTRA alarming, reinforcing the thoughts behind the actions. But even if you changed your language, it would not change the disconcerting actions behind it. No matter how you might choose to reason away or defend your actions, they will still look very troubling & make models feel uneasy.

2. Finding girls who are not as successful and who may be desperate enough to trade advice for attention instead of money... That is exploitation. You are not giving them what they deserve (money) - you are seeking out women who are not very popular, who are more receptive and moldable to become the model you desire. You are taking advantage of those who are less successful, under the guise of helping. If you truly wished to help, you would give them money. Tokens increase their camscore or their placements, which allow more people to find them, which is truly the best way to help. Instead, you comb the forums for free information, specifically seek out those who are not at an advantage, and trade free-knowledge for time & attention & research material, instead of paying for her time. And while you think it's fair in your heart, from the outside, it only looks exploitative & manipulative. Again, exploiting vulnerable girls under the guise of help comes across as predatory, not helpful or empathetic. I think every new girl has had a random dude step forward and ask for free Skype in exchange for general advice - and some are naive or desperate enough to fall for it. It's manipulation, taking advantage of those who might be desperate for help, who perhaps lack the confidence to believe they can succeed by themselves. It's super duper duper common, and it's never fun to see someone defend it as a serial practice.

3. Sex workers also typically don't appreciate non-sex workers stepping forward to make money off of the knowledge, experience, and backs of sex-workers, ESPECIALLY off of the backs of SWers who might be more vulnerable. It leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths. There are very, very, very few non-sex workers who can profit - and they usually provide a MASSIVE service that improves a LOT of lives. Everyone else just feels parasitic, no matter the intentions. And we've had worlds of parasites seeking to profit off of us over the ceeeenturies - you're not going to see a lot of people rush forward to support or improve the game of someone else seeking to do the same. ESPECIALLY, ESPECIALLY, ESPECIALLY when combined with reasons 1 & 2. When someone seeks to profit off of sex-workers while displaying predatory, grooming behavior - you're not going to find a lot of helpfulness or support.

Honestly, the only thing that I can suggest to become a better human being is to stop trying to "help" these girls the way you have been. Stop trying to experiment with their shows. Stop giving them advice. Stop trying to get their time & attention without money. Stop trying to fix them or their business or their lives. Be a normal member who finds a girl he likes & supports them with money, viewing them as human beings instead of tools or projects to be improved. That is legit the only advice that any of us can give you. :(
 

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damn bro, you really still defending your predatory actions

Get this boy a new hobby

Have you tried crafting? Adult coloring is trendy right now.

https://www.michaels.com/
 
D

Deleted member 36060

Guest
Language is the vehicle of thought. You served me a turd on a plate, I complained. So the second time you put a bow on the turd. It is still a turd with a bow on it, I tell you. This time, your third attempt, you made a turd filling and put that in a cake. I still complain. You say my problem is the presentation. My problem is not the cake, the bow or the plate, it's the turd. Problem with your cake is the turd filling oozing out of it with it's very particular turd smell.

@Mila_

I had a good laugh from this. Thanks :D
 
Aug 14, 2018
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I am going to ignorantly give him the benefit of the doubt (cause i'm funny like that) and say I think all the criticism might have had a impact and clicked on a lightbulb in his head. Again.. ignorantly saying this. I am hoping he did not take all this personal and get bitter. That could lead to some nasty attitude off forum. I see the spark of intelligence there, but remember even geniuses can't do everything better. (no he is not a genius lol) Hopefully this leads to him working this out constructively and those around can benefit in some way rather than the opposite. Even if he stuck his foot in his mouth over and over, nobody is perfect. He has guts at the very least to endure the beating he brought on himself, and reply collected rather than turning to insults and loosing composure like some would. Not defending him/his actions in any way, but there are constructive elements that can be taken from this entire discussion. No point in dwelling on anything negative, because it does no good at this stage.
 
Jun 27, 2017
1,094
579
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There are several reasons why people are not hurrying forward to change or improve you, helping you to become a better human being. Language is one thing, but that isn't the only thing that Mila or any of the other people are creeped out by. Yes, language gives insight into how people think, how they feel, how they view the world. That is why it is so powerful, and so useful. But changing the words you use will not change the nature of your thoughts or the actions that you take and the way they come across on the board. This goes beyond poor word choice - it is the nature of your actions which many find so unsettling.

1. The entire system of finding a newer or less successful girl to mold and train and improve. One of your previous statements seemed to indicate bewilderment that more people don't do the same... Or at least, imply that you are extra kind for stepping forward to find these girls & help them. Most people don't look at other models and immediately think that they need help. In my mind, doing so would be infantalizing these women, and that's more than a little bit insulting. We see them as women who are in charge of their own lives & their own business, who have all of the tools at their disposal, should they choose to do so. It isn't our business, to assume that they need help, or to assume that they need fixed or improved. Most people look at models as fun, entertaining humans who know what they are doing, or are adult enough to run their business the way they want to, without need of a manager or extrahelpfulfriend to control their show & improve their lives FOR them.

One big problem is that you do not see my other activity online. 90% of what I do on sites like CB is normal viewer interaction. There are a lot of rooms where I think of ways that the performer could improve, and I do not make it my business to talk to them about that or to try to help. I had a specific goal to learn about what elements make a webcam performer moderately successful. I found a handful of performers who had the required talent and who wanted the help. But it is only 10% of my activity.

The problem is I do not talk about the 90% very often on ACF. I focus on the 10% that are webcam-business oriented relationships because I thought that this was the primary focus of ACF. This has all gotten very twisted now where people look at 10% of my activity online and somehow construct all of these fantastic imaginative stories about how it is all-consuming behavior for me and seem to imply that I do this to the exclusion of normal viewer interactions.

You say that they ask for help - and that might be right. But from all of your previous statements, it genuinely seems like you SEARCH for the perfect girl who would ask for help in the first place... And that's eerie on its own. Searching for the perfect target who will ask for help, who will allow you to make changes and experiment on her business, who will allow you to interview their regulars about how your girl can improve her show. It doesn't seem helpful or nice. It feels an awwwwwful lot like digital pimping, y'know? Put everything together, and that is how predators behave, and that is why so many girls are unsettled. If you were to look up predatory grooming behavior, almost everything fits. A) Find the perfect, vulnerable target. B) Gain information about them & gain their trust. D) Fill a need in their lives. E) Sexualize the relationship & get what you want. F) Control the target to continue getting what you want, as if the victims are merely toys or objects.

The problem with this is that the opposite is true. The relationships had a better chance of becoming sexual when they were normal viewer interactions. By turning an online friendship into a pseudo-work relationship, that has actually had the effect of putting pressure on it that actually make non-work-related conversations more difficult.


2. Finding girls who are not as successful and who may be desperate enough to trade advice for attention instead of money... That is exploitation. You are not giving them what they deserve (money) - you are seeking out women who are not very popular, who are more receptive and moldable to become the model you desire. You are taking advantage of those who are less successful, under the guise of helping. If you truly wished to help, you would give them money.... I think every new girl has had a random dude step forward and ask for free Skype in exchange for general advice - and some are naive or desperate enough to fall for it. It's manipulation, taking advantage of those who might be desperate for help, who perhaps lack the confidence to believe they can succeed by themselves. It's super duper duper common, and it's never fun to see someone defend it as a serial practice.

I spend more than $1,000 USD per month on just the girls I help. I gave them that support before I helped them. I give them that same support after I helped them. I never traded my help for services.

If the girl grows her viewer traffic by 1400% and doubles her revenue, that is not exploitation. She's laughing at that "exploitation" all the way to the bank.

As for "attention", the kind of attention you get from someone who is working with you on a project is not the kind of attention I would want if my ambitions were romantic. And I know what romantic attention feels like on these systems. I have amazing interactions with some models where they are not getting much money from me yet constantly contact me offline and have really extensive discussions with me and get very personal, and those interactions have a very warm, human, and caring feeling to them that is completely different than what I get from helping a model to improve her show. Knowing what I know now, if one of those models asked me for help I would strongly discourage her because combining business with pleasure is usually not a winning combination.

3. Sex workers also typically don't appreciate non-sex workers stepping forward to make money off of the knowledge, experience, and backs of sex-workers, ESPECIALLY off of the backs of SWers who might be more vulnerable. It leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths. There are very, very, very few non-sex workers who can profit - and they usually provide a MASSIVE service that improves a LOT of lives. Everyone else just feels parasitic, no matter the intentions. And we've had worlds of parasites seeking to profit off of us over the ceeeenturies - you're not going to see a lot of people rush forward to support or improve the game of someone else seeking to do the same. ESPECIALLY, ESPECIALLY, ESPECIALLY when combined with reasons 1 & 2. When someone seeks to profit off of sex-workers while displaying predatory, grooming behavior - you're not going to find a lot of helpfulness or support.

Now I understand you. You make a fantastic point here. I need to show empathy for this, and I do recognize how there are tons of guys on these systems who try to trade cheap types of support - like moderation - for sexual services.

But try to see this from my side. No matter what I say or do, people keep trying to squeeze me into that stereotype. And I do not fit that stereotype. And I do not have some grand hidden plan or ambition. I have been more transparent than I should have been, and I was not rewarded for that honesty.
 
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