The Black Lives Matters thread.

[Ambers Troll]

xDollPartsx this was about working under an industrial system right? Not sure what it has to do with racism, but a very good description of the poor being disenfranchised, this is exactly the struggle to get out of poverty in the industrial world.

 

[LenaSexton]

Highly relevant, because he puts race relations in historical context (as did Tim Wise). We have all been taught a paler version of history. You have to really dig to find books that go in depth the major part we (Black people) played down through the history of the world.

Interesting show. Talking about the roots of America especially, where he made mention of the American Revolution being fought to preserve slavery. I grew up with a slightly paler version of history. Of course, I don't really believe that slavery was the entire reason, but it did factor into the picture.

His mention of when black people became technically American. 1970. Oh the irony.

He said something very important. BLM is doing something about what supporters in this thread have complained about. Complaints I believe.

Spoiler: relevant?

 

[Osmia]

....While BLM is also bringing about awareness, many within the Black community believe that they are also a puppets.

As an African-American, and I can only speak for myself, but within the last three years the America I thought I knew has really let me down. I always knew racism existed, but I always thought that most people are above being racist. As I have shared in other posts what brought me to camming was financial desperation.

I had graduated from college last December only a month after being the company I worked for for seven years went belly up a month prior. Eventhough I have a college degree, bilingual, and highly experienced it took me almost eight months to find a job.

I would sit at my computer for hours filling out applications and faxing resumes and not get a single callback or interview. This went on for months. Then it dawned on me..."What if my name is working against me"? My real name is very ethnic like many Black women (it's Sanskrit actually), so I decided to shorten my name on my resume and applications to something more racially ambiguous. I got callbacks and interviews like crazy!
I am highly articulate and professional, so everything would go great by email and phone UNTIL they saw me in person. It would be so obvious. It became very depressing. I worked a full-time job and went to school full time for two years to finish my bachelors only to not be able to find a better job when I graduated.
If it wasn't for camming I would be either in a homeless shelter or living with my parents, degree and all. I have only been working at my current day job for roughly two months, but the hiring manager was also Black so I think that played a part in it.
I could name other personal experiences with racism in my lifetime. I am a law-abiding citizen, educated, no criminal record, none of the usual stereotypes but I even I have had negative experiences with racism and being criminalized for no other reason than being Black.
However, what really grinds my gears as that when Black men, women and children are shot and killed that the first thing the media does is dig up any dirt they can to criminalize and dehumanize them.

Also as far as BLM is concerned, the shooters specifically stated that they were not associated with BLM, even though the media keeps saying they were connected... Don't get me started on the media lol.

Some in the black community believe BLM are puppets? Of whom? I'm not disputing it; I just want to hear more about it.

Also, your story about your job-finding difficulties was quite helpful. You even did a controlled experiment, lol.. This may sound naive, but I would like to hear more such stories from the p.o.c. here, especially blacks. The discussion of racism usually floats abstractly above the real world, and stories like this help make it concrete and understandable to those who don't normally experience it.

 

[Osmia]

I was out walking my dogs this morning and passed by a house with an American flag flying on a pole (which is not uncommon around here). Below the American flag was what looked like a black and white American flag with a bright blue horizontal line running across the middle. I figured this probably had some political significance, maybe something to do with Blue Lives Matter.

Apparently it is A Thing: https://www.amazon.com/Thin-Blue-Line-American-Flag/dp/B00QY7F6QQ/

It depicts the "Thin Blue Line," symbol of support for the police. As to the black and white, I don't know whether this is supposed to represent the white and black races, or is just a way to make the blue line stand out. Either way, I don't like to see the American flag defaced like this, and I think it is technically illegal.

 

[Osmia]

More at http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/20/us/politics/melania-trump-twitter-blacks.html

 

[SoTxBob]

Osmia, have several here too in the nbrhood. Retired cop across the street says its not racial at all but represents the US as a whole, with us vs them mentality. The thin blue line is all that stands between "life as we know it and anarchy." Not gonna fly one on my place tho...

 

[Mila_]

Those of you who talk about the historical context... What do you guys think about black separatism?

From my perspective, and I might be wrong about this because I don't have enough information yet, my opinion is that if you have a history of slavery by whites in the US, then pretending to live side by side with the very people that enslaved you is an uphill battle. I understand the resentment, the desire to demand change, and all of that, but I personally believe racial tension is impossible to suppress completely.

What I am trying to say is there will always be tension between different groups, no matter how they choose to divide themselves, be it through religion, culture, race, or any other criteria. Because people want to be surrounded by what they consider to be their peers. They trust their peers more and cooperate with them more easily and in the same manner there is distrust towards those they consider to be different to themselves. In my case, for example, I will always trust another jew more than a gentile. And I will cooperate with a venezuelan more easily than with someone from a different place. These are the things that I am familiar with and that I feel I understand. Doesnt necessarily mean I am racist towards non-jews or anything, it is just that I trust jews more. If every person does the same thing with their peers then you have a system in which the group that ends up in the majority is at an advantage simply because most people consider them their peers. No matter how much you fight against racism this is a human instinct that is almost impossible to suppress, we evolved as tribal societies.

So what I believe blacks should do, if you wanted to solve this issue, is seek your own territory as reparations for slavery. You can get the US to give you a piece of land for yourselves, or ask for territory in your ancestral homeland: Africa, and the US would have to help you build your nation as reparations for slavery. This would actually solve this issue. It would give you a territory of your own where you would be in power and in control of the system instaed of having to exist side by side with the people who enslaved you and as a minority within them.

Obviously this is just my personal opinion and I havent researched this fully. Perhaps it is influenced by jewish history, because after WWII we didnt stay in Europe, we built Israel and moved there, away from the people that fucked us over. So that might be a nice solution.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

So what I believe blacks should do, if you wanted to solve this issue, is seek your own territory as reparations for slavery. You can get the US to give you a piece of land for yourselves, or ask for territory in your ancestral homeland: Africa, and the US would have to help you build your nation as reparations for slavery. This would actually solve this issue. It would give you a territory of your own where you would be in power and in control of the system instaed of having to exist side by side with the people who enslaved you and as a minority within them.

Obviously this is just my personal opinion and I havent researched this fully. Perhaps it is influenced by jewish history, because after WWII we didnt stay in Europe, we built Israel and moved there, away from the people that fucked us over. So that might be a nice solution.

You know how the rednecks say it Mila? They say take your black ass back to Africa. You ought to be ashamed.

 

[Mila_]

You know how the rednecks say it Mila? They say take your black ass back to Africa. You ought to be ashamed.

Malcolm X was a redneck?

Edit: in case you didn't read carefully, I said that the US should give black people a piece of land within the US.. OR if black people prefer they can also ask for territory in Africa. Up to them. We did it after the Holocaust, we asked for our own territory and we got it. And we could have asked for territory in Europe, but we wanted to be where our roots are: in Israel.

Edit #2: and in case you didn't know jews were also told "go back to Palestine" during WWII by Europe. But guess what? Solving the issue was more important. So Sionists realized that it was better for jews to live far away from the people who wanted to exterminate them. Regardless of what catchphrases they used.

 

[LuckySmiles]

If anyone's more comfortable having leftist world views challenged by a great black man, I suggest looking up Dr. Thomas Sowell...
There are tons of videos of his interviews on youtube going back to the 70's and 80's to present day, some clips some full lengths. He also has many books and articles published on a range of related topics. He is a former Marxist/Leftist and often explains why he abandoned ship when he saw how it does more harm than good for the black community.

If I try to paraphrase anything it will have less impact. He often covers American history as well, in ways some might not be used to hearing. There's so much interesting stuff... I wouldn't know what one to pick to be most appropriately on topic...

 

[Osmia]

Malcolm X was a redneck?

Edit: in case you didn't read carefully, I said that the US should give black people a piece of land within the US.. OR if black people prefer they can also ask for territory in Africa. Up to them. We did it after the Holocaust, we asked for our own territory and we got it. And we could have asked for territory in Europe, but we wanted to be where our roots are: in Israel.

Edit #2: and in case you didn't know jews were also told "go back to Palestine" during WWII by Europe. But guess what? Solving the issue was more important. So Sionists realized that it was better for jews to live far away from the people who wanted to exterminate them. Regardless of what catchphrases they used.

Mila, this is problematic in so many ways, especially morally and practically. Here's a good article about the evolution of Lincoln's thought on repatriation:

www.npr.org/2011/02/21/133372512/tracing-president-lincolns-thoughts-on-slavery

In short, he considered various forms of separation/relocation up until the Emancipation Proclamation, when he abandoned those options (and other institutions of the time, including the military, rejected it also). If this sort of "solution" was rejected back then, when racism was much more embedded in society and in people's psychology than it is today, why revive it now? It's a complete non-starter, and I think you're being gratuitously provocative.

People are free to move wherever they want, so if a black American wants to move to Africa, they can. Notice I didn't say back to Africa. This is their country.

 

[justjoinedtopost]

Malcolm X was a redneck?

Edit: in case you didn't read carefully, I said that the US should give black people a piece of land within the US.. OR if black people prefer they can also ask for territory in Africa. Up to them. We did it after the Holocaust, we asked for our own territory and we got it. And we could have asked for territory in Europe, but we wanted to be where our roots are: in Israel.

Malcolm X said racist shit.
Rednecks say racist shit.
I am not clear of the context yet, but if the video of the BLM protestor yelling "this aint your fight" was because of white protestors, that was some racist shit.
The video I posted as "relevant?" had a two people speaking racist rhetoric.

You have brought up some good points about this BLM movement. That remark went over the line though imo.

There may be some dangerous ideology at work within their movement. But by god, they have a very legitimate complaint.

 

[Ms_Diane]

Have been thinking about the negative media coverage of BLM and the challenges in activism of working together and hearing different voices within a group that is generally working towards the same goals. Sorry for the run on sentence.

I am sympathetic to the BLM movement because I see the positive actions and voices that have come out of it. Because there are positive voices!

I prefer not to dwell on the negatives because I don't want to give that stuff more weight, more voice and is counter productive. Focusing on the negative media coverage, takes away from what the larger movement (that BLM is a part of) is calling for - a discussion about systemic racism and police reform. That's why I don't have big issues with BLM. I think their larger goals are what's important. I think I can support BLM even if I don't agree everything that comes out of the group.

It's definitely important to be aware and be critical of activism, but I place more weight on the criticism coming from POC and other activist groups than media.

 

[eyeteach]

I hate how the media portrays black victims as criminals etc by using past mugshots but can show a white killers graduation photos or like Instagram photos. Like that type of stuff is what I mean when I say feeds into racism. Because then people see the mugshot and are like "Well, obviously the black guy did something wrong because LOOK he has criminal history. #fact"

Its one form of fear mongering. Just like the media did with middle eastern people and associating them with terrorist. And currently its exactly what Trump is doing towards Latin/Hispanic people.

LoiraVox I've always been taught to respect others and one's own opinions until those opinions prove false, I have no idea where nor how you formed your opinion in your second sentence above but you are patently wrong there. The first photo of Trayvon Martin that was floated out by both the media and those who apparently share your view of social justice was one of an innocent, 12 year old child and not Martin's facebook photo's of a 17 year old, tatted, thugged-out juvenile who had been sent to live with his father in the community where he was killed because he had physically assaulted his mother. Let me say that again: he beat up his own mom. Why wasn't that #fact fervently discussed as much as BHO's remarks that Trayvon could have been his own son?

Michael Brown. Remember the "gentle giant?" What was the first picture we saw on all social media about Michael Brown? A picture of his high school cap and gown. Not a mug shot shot but a cap and gown. If the police department had not released the CCTV from the store he robbed we wouldn't have seen the real Michael Brown; the Michel Brown who strong armed the clerk and who stole from that store.

Now, let's take a look at Charleston shooter, Dylann Roof. How long did it take for the media to find a public photo of this white, hate-filled murderer wearing a jacket with white supremacists propaganda? Did those photo's come before his graduation, grade school, or elementary pictures. Nope, the white supremacist pic was the first photo leaked via the media. BTW, whether you believe it or not I honestly hope Roof rots in hell for what he did.

Unless I've mistakenly misread your comments then I have to tell you that you are patently false in your assertions.

 

[Mila_]

Mila, this is problematic in so many ways, especially morally and practically. Here's a good article about the evolution of Lincoln's thought on repatriation:

www.npr.org/2011/02/21/133372512/tracing-president-lincolns-thoughts-on-slavery

In short, he considered various forms of separation/relocation up until the Emancipation Proclamation, when he abandoned those options (and other institutions of the time, including the military, rejected it also). If this sort of "solution" was rejected back then, when racism was much more embedded in society and in people's psychology than it is today, why revive it now? It's a complete non-starter, and I think you're being gratuitously provocative.

People are free to move wherever they want, so if a black American wants to move to Africa, they can. Notice I didn't say back to Africa. This is their country.

That is interesting, I didnt know they considered it in the past. I think that there is a difference when whites try to "impose" a solution on blacks than when blacks demand a solution for themselves, even if the outcome was the same. One is forced and the other one is voluntary. So that is why I was asking black people on the thread about their thoughts on it, because it is a totally legitimate response to the history of slavery in this country.

There are also differences in terms of application. So for example, scenario A: white people say black people should live in their own separate territory, and proceed to round them up and put them there while keeping political control over those territories. We would all agree these would be ghettos and that would be terrible. But Scenario B: black people demanding to be given a territory so America gives them, say, California for themselves (or any other state idk) and black people declare independence and become their own separate country with their own constitution, government, etc. This is an entirely different scenario wouldnt you think?

Same with repatriation. Black people can move to Africa if they want, but that isnt their home and it never will be. They are now a different people than they were 5 generations ago. They mixed with their slavers, adopted their customs, language, religion, and they have also their own story different from the story of africans (although similar to some of them) so by moving to Africa they are strangers in someone else's land. Black americans are their own reality and in my opinion they should have their own territory.

 

[Ms_Diane]

I think there are a lot of black people talking about this already all over the place for years ?????

So that is why I was asking black people on the thread about their thoughts on it, because it is a totally legitimate response to the history of slavery in this country.

 

[Mila_]

I think there are a lot of black people talking about this already all over the place for years ?????

Of course, that is why I was asking the people on this thread their opinions on the black separatist movement. I am curious to know what you think

 

[Osmia]

I think there are a lot of black people talking about this already all over the place for years ?????

Of course, that is why I was asking the people on this thread their opinions on the black separatist movement. I am curious to know what you think

Really? I think I'm reasonably well-informed, and I'm not aware of any such movement or even serious discussions of this apart from occasional figures like Malcolm X. I'd be interested to hear more about this.

 

[Bocefish]

Either way, I don't like to see the American flag defaced like this, and I think it is technically illegal.

As far as flying the American Flag... technically there are no laws, more like strict guidelines. As long as other lesser flags are flown below and not larger in size than the American flag, it's within those guidelines. http://www.united-states-flag.com/displaying-flags.html

 

[Guy]

Really? I think I'm reasonably well-informed, and I'm not aware of any such movement or even serious discussions of this apart from occasional figures like Malcolm X. I'd be interested to hear more about this.

Here's some info on Black Separatist groups http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36766437

 

[Ms_Diane]

Really? I think I'm reasonably well-informed, and I'm not aware of any such movement or even serious discussions of this apart from occasional figures like Malcolm X. I'd be interested to hear more about this.

Sorry I was not saying that there is a lot of stuff specifically on black separatism.

I guess I see the civil rights movement and all the writing, art and speeches by African Americans about slavery and civil rights as a way of getting an idea about what black people think about these issues including separatism.

 

[Gen]

Unrelated to the previous posts but obviously related to the topic, it's been really interesting to see BLM in Canada. How it operates and how its perceived.

There are BLM chapters in some major cities here and the reaction to them is bananas. So much of it is "we aren't racist in Canada so what's the point" or "we don't have police brutality". From what I've read of Canadian BLM chapters they are pretty open about how different things are between Canada and the USA, and they say that they are privileged to live in cities where that's less of a threat, but that they are standing in solidarity with American BLM chapters and other local populations (especially First Nations) that do experience racism/discrimination. Our issues are quite different than the USA's but it seems that most of the Canadians complaining about what BLM Canada does aren't actually that aware of their stances.

Anyways clicking on any article about Canadian BLM chapters, the vast majority of the comments are very against BLM. It definitely seems like most people who are against it (on a Canadian level, can't speak about USA) haven't really looked into it specifically but rather discern a general understanding from the media and base their thoughts on that. I say this not because I disagree but just the way they describe what BLM is asking for or doing is factually inaccurate. It's frustrating because I think the Canadian discussion about the group and their aims, including disagreeing with it, could be a lot more productive if everyone had a better idea of what they were and weren't asking.

I think that's a common problem nowadays as we read headlines or see others referencing things and (maybe subconsciously) absorb that info into our thoughts, but it's been particularly noticeable with BLM Canada and the discourse around it.

Also, Canadians in general can get so smug about how we aren't racist like Americans, everything is in harmony here, etc. Our racial makeup is very different than Americans so our sociocultural landscape is pretty different but often Canadians are like "wow America has so much racism, too many guns and no healthcare, tsk tsk" but we have a lot of our own issues that get swept under the rug in the guise of painting ourselves superior. Especially out west, we have a very small population of Black folks compared to the States or places like Ontario, but we have a lot of Asian and Aboriginal folks and that leads to a whole different set of relations. Idk I think it's annoying to see Canadians chastise Americans as if we don't have our own issues. (This was a bit of a tangent but I see a lot of Canadians getting smug about police brutality while ignoring the different issues we have with Canadian police and racism.)

 

[Osmia]

That is interesting, I didnt know they considered it in the past. I think that there is a difference when whites try to "impose" a solution on blacks than when blacks demand a solution for themselves, even if the outcome was the same. One is forced and the other one is voluntary. So that is why I was asking black people on the thread about their thoughts on it, because it is a totally legitimate response to the history of slavery in this country.

You're right; I elided the imposed vs. the voluntary impetus for relocation that you were talking about. Still, such separatism/relocation seems to run counter to historical trends in this country--and in the world except perhaps for Israel, and in that case it was the Jews' historical homeland, so it was a natural choice (not going to get into the issue of displaced Palestinians).

In the US, where are the examples of ethnic self-segregation? Native Americans in reservations? That wasn't exactly voluntary, and it's likely not an example others would want to emulate. Amish, Mennonites or other religious communities? They are ethnically and culturally relatively homogeneous. African Americans are an extremely diverse population in terms of socio-economic status, geographic location, ancestral history, physical appearance, integration into the larger culture, etc. In that diversity, they are similar to the dominant white culture and to the Hispanics, and most minority groups in this country. In other words, on what basis would African Americans desire to seek separation? Is simply being black sufficient? I just don't see it. I think most people are fundamentally practical in their motivations, and they would relocate and self-segregate only if doing so would bring them better physical security and economic opportunity. It's hard for me to imagine how self-segregation would give them those benefits. But, I'm white, so that's just my opinion as an outsider.

 

[ACFFAN69]

This was such a beautiful thing to watch. Van Jones speaking so much knowledge. I've never seen someone so flawlessly turn an interview around 180 degrees. Most of it is related to Black Lives Matters and police shootings, so I think it's relevant, and it was so good I just had to share:

 

[Mila_]

You're right; I elided the imposed vs. the voluntary impetus for relocation that you were talking about. Still, such separatism/relocation seems to run counter to historical trends in this country--and in the world except perhaps for Israel, and in that case it was the Jews' historical homeland, so it was a natural choice (not going to get into the issue of displaced Palestinians).

In the US, where are the examples of ethnic self-segregation? Native Americans in reservations? That wasn't exactly voluntary, and it's likely not an example others would want to emulate. Amish, Mennonites or other religious communities? They are ethnically and culturally relatively homogeneous. African Americans are an extremely diverse population in terms of socio-economic status, geographic location, ancestral history, physical appearance, integration into the larger culture, etc. In that diversity, they are similar to the dominant white culture and to the Hispanics, and most minority groups in this country. In other words, on what basis would African Americans desire to seek separation? Is simply being black sufficient? I just don't see it. I think most people are fundamentally practical in their motivations, and they would relocate and self-segregate only if doing so would bring them better physical security and economic opportunity. It's hard for me to imagine how self-segregation would give them those benefits. But, I'm white, so that's just my opinion as an outsider.

I dont want to derail the BLM thread considering not many people wanted to discuss this idea.. in retrospect it is a little silly. Or pointless I guess considering it isn't even on the table, it's more of a "what if" scenario. I just thought about it and was curious to know everyone's thoughts. In part because in my opinion "correcting" the situation is an impossibility, there will always be prejudice and biases and that is why homogeneous societies are more successful than diverse ones, because there is high trust and cooperation. But I digress.

The thing with black separatism is they don't look to be a segregated community within the US like your examples... they don't want to be like the amish or have a reservation. They want complete independence, a country of their own. And this would allow them many things: the right of self determination, the possibility to have an army to defend themselves, a country that is run by them and where they are the majority. So that is a big difference. And maybe there isnt a precedent in the US, but there are countless examples in the world at large, not just jews with Israel although that is the case that gets most publicity mainly because of the palestinians (another favorite cause of the left) but Pakistan and India, is an example, Yugoslavia is another. There are many others too.

 

[Ms_Diane]

Unrelated to the previous posts but obviously related to the topic, it's been really interesting to see BLM in Canada. How it operates and how its perceived.

There are BLM chapters in some major cities here and the reaction to them is bananas. So much of it is "we aren't racist in Canada so what's the point" or "we don't have police brutality". From what I've read of Canadian BLM chapters they are pretty open about how different things are between Canada and the USA, and they say that they are privileged to live in cities where that's less of a threat, but that they are standing in solidarity with American BLM chapters and other local populations (especially First Nations) that do experience racism/discrimination. Our issues are quite different than the USA's but it seems that most of the Canadians complaining about what BLM Canada does aren't actually that aware of their stances.

Anyways clicking on any article about Canadian BLM chapters, the vast majority of the comments are very against BLM. It definitely seems like most people who are against it (on a Canadian level, can't speak about USA) haven't really looked into it specifically but rather discern a general understanding from the media and base their thoughts on that. I say this not because I disagree but just the way they describe what BLM is asking for or doing is factually inaccurate. It's frustrating because I think the Canadian discussion about the group and their aims, including disagreeing with it, could be a lot more productive if everyone had a better idea of what they were and weren't asking.

I think that's a common problem nowadays as we read headlines or see others referencing things and (maybe subconsciously) absorb that info into our thoughts, but it's been particularly noticeable with BLM Canada and the discourse around it.

Also, Canadians in general can get so smug about how we aren't racist like Americans, everything is in harmony here, etc. Our racial makeup is very different than Americans so our sociocultural landscape is pretty different but often Canadians are like "wow America has so much racism, too many guns and no healthcare, tsk tsk" but we have a lot of our own issues that get swept under the rug in the guise of painting ourselves superior. Especially out west, we have a very small population of Black folks compared to the States or places like Ontario, but we have a lot of Asian and Aboriginal folks and that leads to a whole different set of relations. Idk I think it's annoying to see Canadians chastise Americans as if we don't have our own issues. (This was a bit of a tangent but I see a lot of Canadians getting smug about police brutality while ignoring the different issues we have with Canadian police and racism.)

I guess I live in a weird bubble of artists/activists/social workers, so I am surrounded by people who are angry all the time and talking about all the things that are fucked up around here. (Don't get me started on the health care system! Or our pathetic mental health services )

The idea that Canadians think things are a-ok, reminds of the Asians 4 Black Lives Letter that was released recently, one, because it will hopefully make more people wake up to the issue, and 2, because it is a beautiful example of positive community activism that makes me feel hopeful.

So, maybe people know about this, but if not, there is a group called Asians 4 Black Lives and they wrote a letter recently that has now been translated into 15 or so languages. It was inspired by the Asian-American community in NYC and a letter about racism in their community after an Asian-American cop was convicted for killing a black man a while ago. So Asians 4 Black Lives put together their own letter, and hundreds of Asian-Canadian folks have contributed to this letter and it has been joined by other immigrant communities who are writing letters too. It has been become this thing called "Letters for Black Lives"

The website describes it like this: "We began as a group of Asian Americans and Canadians writing an intergenerational letter to voice our concerns and support for the Black community. We have since grown to include other immigrant groups and communities of color. Our goal is to listen, support, and amplify the message of Black Lives Matter within our communities."

Here is the Asian-Canadian letter

And here is an article about it from a local Toronto paper if you want more info on the Canadian letter.

 

[DonaDiabla]

I would like to address a couple problems with your post.

First of all; African-Americans did found two countries in Africa. These countries are called Sierra Leone and Liberia; both these countries have African American founders. Also many black Americas live great lives in their ancestors homelands including Cameroon and Ghana. Sure, they had to adjust but they were not strangers in a strange land. Most West Africans welcome black Americans and black Caribbean peoples with open arms.Secondly, not all African-Americans families were affected by slavery in America. My ancestors were slaves in Latin-America and the Caribbean. My bloodlines stretches from blacks in Danish virgin Islands to Argentina's pampas. So, you do not speak for my people's experience in the Americas. My grandparents are recent immigrants to America and I am part of the second generation born in America.

My ancestors were freed in early 1700s. Which was 160 years before blacks in America was free and 180 years before blacks in Brazil was freed. Third, some blacks in the Americas still retain their ancestors' religions and customs. I still retain my ancestors' customs and culture from before the middle passage. I do not follow Western ideas or culture outside of sex work! Fourth, not all blacks were breed by their masters. Just because that happened a lot in America does not mean that was going down everywhere else. Most white masters in the Caribbean would not touch black women because they felt that were unclean. Only the white libertines and sex fiends would breed with their black slaves of the Caribbean. In fact, most white Caribbean slave masters would let white criminals or their white slaves breed with blacks. This is to create a more highly price slave. Frankly, my ancestors had 10 slave masters. Some of them breed with us and some did not . Most of the my non-black blood comes from my ancestors breeding with the mestizo and the romani peoples for 150 years. Most of my male ancestors who were not black were mestizo or romani.Also they breed with other mulattos, quadroons, and octoroons as well. That is where most of the European blood comes from in my bloodline.Fifth, Black Americans all do not come from the same culture or same experience. Thus, we should not have our territory. We are Americans like everyone else. With that logic, why not give divide America up for all groups?

That is interesting, I didnt know they considered it in the past. I think that there is a difference when whites try to "impose" a solution on blacks than when blacks demand a solution for themselves, even if the outcome was the same. One is forced and the other one is voluntary. So that is why I was asking black people on the thread about their thoughts on it, because it is a totally legitimate response to the history of slavery in this country.

There are also differences in terms of application. So for example, scenario A: white people say black people should live in their own separate territory, and proceed to round them up and put them there while keeping political control over those territories. We would all agree these would be ghettos and that would be terrible. But Scenario B: black people demanding to be given a territory so America gives them, say, California for themselves (or any other state idk) and black people declare independence and become their own separate country with their own constitution, government, etc. This is an entirely different scenario wouldnt you think?

Same with repatriation. Black people can move to Africa if they want, but that isnt their home and it never will be. They are now a different people than they were 5 generations ago. They mixed with their slavers, adopted their customs, language, religion, and they have also their own story different from the story of africans (although similar to some of them) so by moving to Africa they are strangers in someone else's land. Black americans are their own reality and in my opinion they should have their own territory.

 

[Ambers Troll]

That guy is a good teacher. Someone worth listening to on any topic he is familiar with, might chase down one of his books actually.

Hope everyone watched the last part of this Van Jones interview, such an educated guy. Way off topic, but he actually picked the major economic issue in regard to western countries about our work lives.
Manufacturing has had its decline, the next is in the management sector and quite a few higher paid and educated jobs as computers replace human decision making processes. VJ mentioned about infrastructure and the struggle in fixing it, I would add that one issue beyond political struggle is finding those who have the skills to do it, to just get the work done.
During your coming election my hope for most Americans is that they focus on jobs, especially with regard to what the jobs of the future may be, and how to give everyone the opportunity to chase them.

Thanks for the link @acffan

 

[DonaDiabla]

Actually, it depends on the black separatism group overall. For example, Nation of Islam want totally separatism in America based on the racial and economic problems that plagued the black community. Other groups might want a full functioning country but the problem is that Black Americans make up the fabric of America. You see, blacks were never the majority of the population like in the Caribbean. However, most black American separatism groups recognize they have a different culture than Afro-Caribbean blacks and our African counterparts.Thus, they feel that having their own space might solve the problems plaguing the Black American community without hurting the other black people's cultures.

I dont want to derail the BLM thread considering not many people wanted to discuss this idea.. in retrospect it is a little silly. Or pointless I guess considering it isn't even on the table, it's more of a "what if" scenario. I just thought about it and was curious to know everyone's thoughts. In part because in my opinion "correcting" the situation is an impossibility, there will always be prejudice and biases and that is why homogeneous societies are more successful than diverse ones, because there is high trust and cooperation. But I digress.

The thing with black separatism is they don't look to be a segregated community within the US like your examples... they don't want to be like the amish or have a reservation. They want complete independence, a country of their own. And this would allow them many things: the right of self determination, the possibility to have an army to defend themselves, a country that is run by them and where they are the majority. So that is a big difference. And maybe there isnt a precedent in the US, but there are countless examples in the world at large, not just jews with Israel although that is the case that gets most publicity mainly because of the palestinians (another favorite cause of the left) but Pakistan and India, is an example, Yugoslavia is another. There are many others too.

 

[Mila_]

I would like to address a couple problems with your post.

First of all; African-Americans did found two countries in Africa. These countries are called Sierra Leone and Liberia; both these countries have African American founders. Also many black Americas live great lives in their ancestors homelands including Cameroon and Ghana. Sure, they had to adjust but they were not strangers in a strange land. Most West Africans welcome black Americans and black Caribbean peoples with open arms.Secondly, not all African-Americans families were affected by slavery in America. My ancestors were slaves in Latin-America and the Caribbean. My bloodlines stretches from blacks in Danish virgin Islands to Argentina's pampas. So, you do not speak for my people's experience in the Americas. My grandparents are recent immigrants to America and I am part of the second generation born in America.

My ancestors were freed in early 1700s. Which was 160 years before blacks in America was free and 180 years before blacks in Brazil was freed. Third, some blacks in the Americas still retain their ancestors' religions and customs. I still retain my ancestors' customs and culture from before the middle passage. I do not follow Western ideas or culture outside of sex work! Fourth, not all blacks were breed by their masters. Just because that happened a lot in America does not mean that was going down everywhere else. Most white masters in the Caribbean would not touch black women because they felt that were unclean. Only the white libertines and sex fiends would breed with their black slaves of the Caribbean. In fact, most white Caribbean slave masters would let white criminals or their white slaves breed with blacks. This is to create a more highly price slave. Frankly, my ancestors had 10 slave masters. Some of them breed with us and some did not . Most of the my non-black blood comes from my ancestors breeding with the mestizo and the romani peoples for 150 years. Most of my male ancestors who were not black were mestizo or romani.Also they breed with other mulattos, quadroons, and octoroons as well. That is where most of the European blood comes from in my bloodline.Fifth, Black Americans all do not come from the same culture or same experience. Thus, we should not have our territory. We are Americans like everyone else. With that logic, why not give divide America up for all groups?

Both your posts were really helpful so thank you for sharing your thoughts and your personal story. I didn't know about Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ghana and I will have a lot of fun researching it, so thank you for pointing me in that direction. I want to add a few things but I will do it under a spoiler so I dont continue to derail the thread.

Spoiler

I don't know about the Caribbean but in the mainland in South America (except for Argentina) there was a lot lot lot of admixture between the spaniards who were white, the black slaves and the indigenous peoples. Most people in SA are a mix of everything, "pardos" they were called during the colony (they werent mullattoes or zamboes because they had been so mixed they were beyond those). It is actually something South Americans are quite proud of, they frequently say that unlike the British and the French the spanish colonialists did marry natives and had children with them and interbred with black people. Which I guess is up for debate.

When you talk about black people being diverse you are absolutely right. I didnt want to make it sound like black people are a monolith, I was writing a quick post and painting with thick brushstrokes... There are obviously differences of all kind. What I was talking about was blacks in the US, not immigrants (1st, 2nd generation) but blacks who are descendants from american slaves do share a common history and I believe that is good enough reason to want a separation from the people who enslaved them. Either in the US or wherever. I say this because I cannot imagine what it would be like if jews still lived in Germany. If I had to live next to germans. I know and I realize that germans today cannot be blamed for what their parents or grandparents did, and I personally wasn't wronged by them, it was my grandparents. And yet it would be very uncomfortable for me to live there.

When I talk about blacks getting a country of their own I do not include blacks from South America here because they aren't a disctinct group. There was integration to such an extent that there aren't distinct races in South America, they are all brown, the only "white" people in South American countries are recent european immigrants who, like myself, just got there (I am not white). I wasn't born in Venezuela, I was raised there though. South America gave refuge to many immigrants from Europe during WWII who were escaping from their countries (Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, etc) and they are mostly white, but everyone else is pretty mixed. And in the case of the Caribbean many countries such as Haiti already have a black majority and are already independent so they are factually free.

Since I was making a comparison between blacks and jews, before Israel was created we were also quite diverse, we still are. There are sephardic jews, ashkenazi jews, sabras (jews who never left israel), jews from yemen, Egypt, etc. Each community had variations in customs and other differences, and yet they all came together in Israel. Maybe this idea of black self determination isn't the opinion of the majority of black people, but I do think that there is a reason why at least a minority feels that way.

It is interesting to see that it is the Nation of Islam the ones who want complete separation. I dislike the fact that they are muslims, but other than that I really respect their pride. I absolutely love some of Muhammad Ali's thoughts such as his thoughts on miscegenation.