Who are you voting for?

[JoleneBrody]

I would like to clarify that when I brought up Neo Nazis... I was literally referring to Neo Nazis. I was not comparing people TO Neo Nazis, I was expressing my discomfort with how confident actual Neo Nazis feel right now.

Comparing people to Nazis while occasionally makes sense, is the lowest common denominator of political argument IMO. Obama was hitler, Bush was hitler, Trump is cinnamon hitler (snicker that ones just funny) blah blah blah. Nobody is hitler and unless they are a nazi, they are not a nazi.

But we have a LOT of actual Neo Nazis in the U.S... specifically in the west. They are pumped up right now... they are excited... that is scary.

 

[n_i_c_u]

Damned right! Call a spade a spade. Isn't that what Trump is supposed to be about?

It'd be worth a mention. I was kind of hoping Trump would piss of that contingent of his party too (might as well, at this point).

I come from the rural South. Is it just a regional thing?

I don't know for sure, but anyone aging as a politician during McCarthyism and the cold war couldn't have helped but be influenced by the times if they wanted to be successful (especially if they were leaning on a past of white supremacy). Anyone can have a change of heart, but not liking Commies is an easier and more acceptable explantion than not liking people that aren't white. If he really was a good guy (which is possible) and he spoke against those that put him in his job as a politician he would be labeled something bad and alienated and unsuccessful.

 

[n_i_c_u]

It is strange though that a person who was a "mentor" to a person that will probably be the next President of the USA was a (LOL) "Exalted Cyclops" of the KKK at one time, and, to that, had a lengthy career as a politician helping in any way he could to shape this country and its values. Amazing to me how people do it in life! I can barely talk to people (these people are social masterminds!), but a cyclops is regaled as a 'true original' by a person that will be leading the free world. Sometimes I laugh to keep from crying.

 

[LuckySmiles]

Ughhh. Ok this is all I think I can add. It's not that people are "USING SCIENCE TO PRETEND THERE'S NO RACISM!"

or whatever people are saying. I used to be more "democrat" or whatever because I thought hey.. i'm not racist etc so these must be the people I agree with! Until I actually learned a bit more about politics and put two and two together with real life experience.

No one is saying there is no discrimination or has never been discrimination, people are saying when you "break the data down" these are the exceptions, not the rule. And when you treat the problems for what they are you can actually solve them. And telling people that men are not hiring women because..."boobs and stuff" or cops are hunting black people because "slavery! systemic racism!" you are LYING. You are actually avoiding the problems and you are hurting these people even more.

When studies come out that more black people in a town are arrested than white people in a town. "Systemic Racism!" No. They are forgetting to factor in that more black people in that town live in the dangerous neighborhoods than the safe ones. THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. Help people don't hurt people.

If I am scared in a bad neighborhood it's not because everyone's black it's because the neighborhood is bad and so would anyone else be. When cops go to arrest more people in the bad neighborhood(where often times more poc tend to live) it is because that is where often more crime is. The same thing happens in all white towns, where all the white crime is centrally located but people don't think of it as racism. This is why data matters.

When there has been no woman President in the last 30 years it is not because "Sexist! Glass Ceilings!" It is because less women WANT TO BE THE PRESIDENT. More women pursue other careers than men, and pursue family more. Plain and simple. But when you tell a woman she's not going to get paid as much because "SEXISM" you're lying. You're neglecting to tell that woman she needs to major in Engineering, Finance or Physics instead of Liberal Arts.

This is what people are tired of. Has someone ever been turned down a job they were qualified because they were too pretty? Probably people can be jerks. But jerkism is not systemic. And these things are exceptions, not the rule.

And once you live in places where everyone will get beat up the same regardless of color if they are different, you will realize these things will always happen and are not necessarily indicative of an "oppressive society" and that you can only do so much sometimes, but you can fix things like education, have more jobs for everyone so that there will BE MORE JOBS instead of keep telling everyone they're not going to benefit from more jobs anyways because "isms!"

 

[LuckySmiles]

I went on a bit of a rant, but my point is you cannot correct for these problems in public policy the way people have been. It's not just democrats it's both, but it's a lot of them.

And IMO the way they go about it causes more division than anything else.

 

[n_i_c_u]

I've been meaning to ask....because you and some others in this forum have made statements to the effect that, Yes, Trump is a jerk, but at least he will Get Shit Done. Or, yes, Trump exaggerates and says a lot of BS that isn't true, but on the things that matter, he is clear and truthful.

What does he really believe, and what would he actually do? Why can't he just state his position clearly?

Actually, and this will make me a racist or whatever, but I was on board with the concept of a "Wall." I read "Fast Food Nation" and saw the movie and I watch "Border Wars" and feel bad for these people (and animals) that are being abused by America (and realize that the officers involved are overworked trying to defend the border). I worked with one (1) illegal immigrant: he couldn't speak english, was a cook at a country club and spent his time at the Public Library (because of air conditioning). Might be better than what he had, but WOW. I actually wouldn't mind if America had to pay more for their Chicken McNuggets. Funny thing is is that I have an uncle who is a gynecologist. In the 90's I was all social and worried about China taking our jobs and he, being a staunch Democrat, told me Americans don't want "those" jobs (the ones we are losing that just about any cheap laborer could do--kind of like the character Roseanne in her tv show). That may be true to this day. The wall, to me, seems to represent doing something. I am probably idealistic and dumb (go ahead and say it and I will say I hope your --not you individually-- Mickie D's cheesburger will cost 5.00 in the future).

For me, until he abandons the wall thing, I will probably vote for him. Luring in voters seems to be what he is trying to do now. Try to Appeal to the peoples -- some will like his words, others won't--that's what I love about this country. Everybody already seems to know what Hillary will do, so, he can only work with that.

I don't know if he can get shit done since there are so many ropes to jump thru in politics. At worst, I think he can't do any worse than anyone else. Will he fuck people over? Probably. Will he fuck over the people that voted for him? Probably. I would love to see progress... I thought Obama did pretty good but even then, people have a problem with him and the health care and weed (otherwise he seems to be placating the peoples--which I guess is great if that is your goal--though his response to Isis is slow and cautious which might be good).

Just for fun , I always think politics is a weird thing and everyone says stuff that is pretty fucked:

no new taxes:



or we have a freedom's fight and our cause is just:



Or you're a just a good worker:



or just a guy that doesn't know what is going on (I know about Alzheimer):



I could do Obama, the Clintons, and Kennedy, (not sure what to do with Jimmy Carter), but I thought these would have been enough to make the peoples with a brain abandon the Republican party.

 

[Mila_]

It's about more than that; it's about loss of good jobs for the middle and working classes and the ability to support oneself and family, it's about the demographic changes the country has experienced (and that doesn't mean the 40% are racist), and it's about the feeling of being left behind as a group (again, doesn't imply racism on their part).

It isn't about job creation or tax plans. Sure, having more jobs is nice but it isn't what makes the core of Trump supporters. Many people who would have never voted for, say, ¡Jeb! or Marco Rubio will go and vote for Trump. It isn't about the economy.

It is about survival, not of "a" group, but of their home. Trump supporters want to survive as families and they want the America that they knew and grew up in to survive. It doesn't mean they hate Mexico, they just don't want America to be Mexico. Mexico can be Mexico, keep their language and customs and Mexicans there and fight for their own homeland, and Americans can do the same in the US. So while other republicans spend all their breath on tax plans, Trump voters were thinking about survival.

And by the way, I am not an american, but I support this notion because I can't really support the State of Israel being jewish and then deny others their right to self determination, secure borders, and a territory of their own. If say.. an Hungarian man came to me and said: "I want Hungary to be for the hungarian people, where the hungarian language is spoken, where we teach our children hungarian traditions and customs, and where we are catholic" I would support him too. I believe every nation has a right to their own home.

And basically this is the notion that binds Trump supporters together because we are a very diverse group of people. There are orthodox christians supporting Trump, but you also have a spanish camgirl like me or my friend, a porn actress from France, or a soccer mom from Winsconsin, or a black uber driver from Florida who gave me a ride to the dentist, or a hardcore 16 year old gamer from Twitch. We all support him because we believe America should be... America with well defined borders that they can defend, with a right to self determination, and where the needs of americans go first. Because we all know our identities and we are worried when we see them dissolve like they don't matter.

People aren't numbers. We aren't interchangeable. We aren't a resource. The idea of the individual is a lie. We are men and women with families, with a certain culture, a certain values, a language, a religion, and a tradition, all of our groups are part of the human diversity, have a right to a home of their own, and should be conserved if only for the reason that they are part of the richness of humanity.

 

[Lili_xo]

Yeah actually telling a country it has no right to have borders is same as telling someone they have no right to have boundaries which is ABUSIVE.

 

[Lili_xo]

( and also will guilt trip you with all kind of slander if u don't want to go with their program lol - their program title is : ME ME ME

 

[Mila_]

I just watched this video and I want to share it even though it is such an extreme example because if that Lyft driver wasn't voting for Trump before, he certainly will now.



Thank god she didn't post it to Gawker like she said she would and ruin his life. I just hope he didn't lose his job after her 1 star rating and the complaint.

Edit: lel at "pillaging of the continent of Hawaii"

 

[Osmia]

Actually, and this will make me a racist or whatever, but I was on board with the concept of a "Wall." I read "Fast Food Nation" and saw the movie and I watch "Border Wars" and feel bad for these people (and animals) that are being abused by America (and realize that the officers involved are overworked trying to defend the border). I worked with one (1) illegal immigrant: he couldn't speak english, was a cook at a country club and spent his time at the Public Library (because of air conditioning). Might be better than what he had, but WOW. I actually wouldn't mind if America had to pay more for their Chicken McNuggets. Funny thing is is that I have an uncle who is a gynecologist. In the 90's I was all social and worried about China taking our jobs and he, being a staunch Democrat, told me Americans don't want "those" jobs (the ones we are losing that just about any cheap laborer could do--kind of like the character Roseanne in her tv show). That may be true to this day. The wall, to me, seems to represent doing something. I am probably idealistic and dumb (go ahead and say it and I will say I hope your --not you individually-- Mickie D's cheesburger will cost 5.00 in the future).

For me, until he abandons the wall thing, I will probably vote for him. Luring in voters seems to be what he is trying to do now. Try to Appeal to the peoples -- some will like his words, others won't--that's what I love about this country. Everybody already seems to know what Hillary will do, so, he can only work with that.

I don't know if he can get shit done since there are so many ropes to jump thru in politics. At worst, I think he can't do any worse than anyone else. Will he fuck people over? Probably. Will he fuck over the people that voted for him? Probably. I would love to see progress... I thought Obama did pretty good but even then, people have a problem with him and the health care and weed (otherwise he seems to be placating the peoples--which I guess is great if that is your goal--though his response to Isis is slow and cautious which might be good).

Just for fun , I always think politics is a weird thing and everyone says stuff that is pretty fucked:

no new taxes:



or we have a freedom's fight and our cause is just:



Or you're a just a good worker:



or just a guy that doesn't know what is going on (I know about Alzheimer):



I could do Obama, the Clintons, and Kennedy, (not sure what to do with Jimmy Carter), but I thought these would have been enough to make the peoples with a brain abandon the Republican party.

You raise an interesting point by mentioning offshoring to China, and illegal immigration. It could be argued that they're part of the same phenomenon: the American consumer's demand for lower prices. If there were no low-paying jobs for illegal immigrants, they wouldn't come. If people were willing to pay xx percent more for consumer goods, there would be no offshoring to China. Similar arguments have been made about illegal drugs: if Americans didn't demand illegal drugs, there would be no drug cartels, smuggling, violence, drug gangs, etc.

It's certainly not as simple as I described above. I vaguely remember seeing or reading an interview with Steve Jobs in which he said that the iPhone could not be manufactured in the USA even if Americans were willing to pay a significant premium. It was something about the manufacturing process--there were frequent changes, starts, stops, the need for long hours, irregular schedules, supply chain flexibility, etc. Americans wouldn't tolerate that work style.

 

[Lili_xo]

Watched the lyft driver video. Please note the hypnotized no emotion slightly distant voice one same tone of the girl. similar to the kind cult members have just repeating some slogan chanting over and over. After a while u might get sleepy from it.
No actually the girl can get sued for upsetting the driver ( in case something more drastic happened) - he is driving is not the time to call people names whatever the opinion is. If it was bus driver he would stop and call police or ask her to leave. He has no idea what else she might do behind his back.

 

[n_i_c_u]

It was something about the manufacturing process-

Nothing against you, and maybe I should send this in a pm or whatever, but, I don't know man. We can send a person to the moon and send satellites to explore outer space and learn more about planets that we probably should know but Steve Jobs and his company can't figure out the manufacturing process so that people aren't exploited? Not sure I am buying it (pointing it out while I enjoy my refurbished android galaxy s3 phone--see, I am contributing to the problem, and the lack of regret is rather soothing ).

 

[Protocosmo]

Watched the lyft driver video. Please note the hypnotized no emotion slightly distant voice one same tone of the girl. similar to the kind cult members have just repeating some slogan chanting over and over. After a while u might get sleepy from it.
No actually the girl can get sued for upsetting the driver ( in case something more drastic happened) - he is driving is not the time to call people names whatever the opinion is. If it was bus driver he would stop and call police or ask her to leave. He has no idea what else she might do behind his back.

You have a strange way of reading people. To me, she's a rather emotional asshole with a side order of grifter.

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

Nothing against you, and maybe I should send this in a pm or whatever, but, I don't know man. We can send a person to the moon and send satellites to explore outer space and learn more about planets that we probably should know but Steve Jobs and his company can't figure out the manufacturing process so that people aren't exploited? Not sure I am buying it (pointing it out while I enjoy my refurbished android galaxy s3 phone--see, I am contributing to the problem, and the lack of regret is rather soothing ).

The main iPhone manufacturer FoxConn, in addition to being huge, typically houses its workers in dormitories. Thus when Steve Job, demanding a last minute change to which glass for an iPhone, the folks at FoxConn, could start a shift at 4 AM in the morning making it*.

American factories don't have that level of flexibility, nor do they have a system of subcontractors all located with an hours drive.

Now from the prospective of an American worker living in a same sex dorm just to have a job that pays poorly, is unacceptable. But for a Chinese worker, who just a generation ago, was barely escaping starvation farming a couple of acres of rice paddies, it is a pretty great job.

There really was very little that was great about these manufacturing jobs that have disappeared, mostly due to automation, and partly due to outsourcing.

*This is described in Walter Isaacson biography on Steve Jobs

 

[Lili_xo]

Not emotional at all Protocosmo. Premeditated and just hateful. She laughed after calling him names. Hate is the only emotion there so it reads all flat. My guess is she probably does this stuff often and had a couple successes here and there at getting her way and it gives her fuel to continue her behavior.

 

[Protocosmo]

View attachment 65238
( and also will guilt trip you with all kind of slander if u don't want to go with their program lol - their program title is : ME ME ME

Kind of reminds me of this documentary

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

No one is saying there is no discrimination or has never been discrimination, people are saying when you "break the data down" these are the exceptions, not the rule. And when you treat the problems for what they are you can actually solve them. And telling people that men are not hiring women because..."boobs and stuff" or cops are hunting black people because "slavery! systemic racism!" you are LYING. You are actually avoiding the problems and you are hurting these people even more.

When studies come out that more black people in a town are arrested than white people in a town. "Systemic Racism!" No. They are forgetting to factor in that more black people in that town live in the dangerous neighborhoods than the safe ones. THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. Help people don't hurt people.

I agree with this. But what I don't understand is what has Trump proposed to do that is actually going to fix things, to solve the problem?

 

[LuckySmiles]

I agree with this. But what I don't understand is what has Trump proposed to do that is actually going to fix things, to solve the problem?

He's addressed voters that Republicans traditionally give up on. He also is not Clinton, who continually panders with the same lies and causes more division among people. "You're right guys! ITS MEN AND WHITE PEOPLE! NOT MY HUSBANDS POLICIES THAT PUT SO MANY PEOPLE IN JAIL!" Once again I'm paraphrasing lol

 

[HiGirlsRHot]

He's addressed voters that Republicans traditionally give up on. He also is not Clinton, who continually panders with the same lies and causes more division among people. "You're right guys! ITS MEN AND WHITE PEOPLE! NOT MY HUSBANDS POLICIES THAT PUT SO MANY PEOPLE IN JAIL!" Once again I'm paraphrasing lol

I guess what I'm looking for is somebody to make the affirmative case for what Donald Trump will do as President that's good, without comparing him to Hillary Clinton. And extra credit if you can link to some statements/proposal that he said that you think would solve some of the countries problems.

If your reason for supporting Trump is because he's not Hillary, as I said earlier that's fine I understand it. Hillary is a pretty awful candidate. But some of the Trump supporters on the thread sound pretty positive about the guy, and I don't understand why.

 

[Ms_Diane]

I'm gonna pipe up with a couple of my own Canadian cents. So, that's about 77 US cents to our dollar.... I dunno, you do the math.

No one is saying there is no discrimination or has never been discrimination, people are saying when you "break the data down" these are the exceptions, not the rule. And when you treat the problems for what they are you can actually solve them. And telling people that men are not hiring women because..."boobs and stuff" or cops are hunting black people because "slavery! systemic racism!" you are LYING. You are actually avoiding the problems and you are hurting these people even more.

When studies come out that more black people in a town are arrested than white people in a town. "Systemic Racism!" No. They are forgetting to factor in that more black people in that town live in the dangerous neighborhoods than the safe ones. THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. Help people don't hurt people.

If I am scared in a bad neighborhood it's not because everyone's black it's because the neighborhood is bad and so would anyone else be. When cops go to arrest more people in the bad neighborhood(where often times more poc tend to live) it is because that is where often more crime is. The same thing happens in all white towns, where all the white crime is centrally located but people don't think of it as racism. This is why data matters.

This is what people are tired of. Has someone ever been turned down a job they were qualified because they were too pretty? Probably people can be jerks. But jerkism is not systemic. And these things are exceptions, not the rule.

This is not wrong, except that you are omitting the reason why certain parts of a town have more black people in them, and why those parts of town are more dangerous, or have more instances of violent crime or arrests or police violence. The reason is history and systemic racism.

There is no racism in all white towns because there is no such thing as being racist against white people. This is something that is very misunderstood I think. I wish people would give this more thought and not dismiss it so quickly. I also wish people did not use racism to insult people. It does not mean you are bad, it means you are human who lives in a world where colonialism is our unfortunate legacy.

When jerks continuously treat the same kind of people with their jerkiness, then it is more than just being a jerk. It is discrimination. But I think this is a common attempt at trying to explain away discrimination. I'm aware of the eye rolling that this will induce, but this is white privilege. You know who is the most tired of it? People who get discriminated against. I know we've disagreed on this topic lots before, so I don't expect us to start to agree one way or the other. I am currently reading Between the World and Me, and the author does a wonderful job of explaining how black bodies are treated differently and why. Highly recommend if you are inclined to be open minded about how racism works.

And once you live in places where everyone will get beat up the same regardless of color if they are different, you will realize these things will always happen and are not necessarily indicative of an "oppressive society" and that you can only do so much sometimes, but you can fix things like education, have more jobs for everyone so that there will BE MORE JOBS instead of keep telling everyone they're not going to benefit from more jobs anyways because "isms!"

Racism is not the same everywhere that's for sure. Education and jobs is totally the way to go. Education is the baseline to all the issues, I think cause whether you think it is about racism or whatever ism or not any ism, education is the way to go on either side of that conversation. The book I mentioned above talks a lot about education and how it fails in its current state.


Btw, totally agree that Bill's policies fucked some shit up. It would be amazing if Hillary just owned that, and was like, I'm gonna fix my husband's mistakes.

 

[Osmia]

Nothing against you, and maybe I should send this in a pm or whatever, but, I don't know man. We can send a person to the moon and send satellites to explore outer space and learn more about planets that we probably should know but Steve Jobs and his company can't figure out the manufacturing process so that people aren't exploited? Not sure I am buying it (pointing it out while I enjoy my refurbished android galaxy s3 phone--see, I am contributing to the problem, and the lack of regret is rather soothing ).

LOL, ok. I just remember it seemed to make sense at the time.
...
I just googled and found quite a few articles from 2012. I think this was an issue in the 2012 presidential campaign. Here's a good one:
http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/17/technology/apple-china-jobs/

Here's an interesting quote from it:

"But pay isn't the biggest obstacle. Various economists have estimated how much an all-American labor force would add to the cost of an iPhone and come up with figures ranging from $65 to $100 per device."​

That's really not that much, considering the iPhone costs $600 or more. The main obstacle is manufacturing flexibility, as the article goes on to explain. The US would have to radically change labor rules, work-related culture, etc.

There was also the infamous dinner Obama had with top tech executives, at which Steve Jobs told Obama that those jobs aren't coming back.
------------
EDIT: didn't see the post by @HiGirlsRHot explaining this better.

 

[LuckySmiles]

This is not wrong, except that you are omitting the reason why certain parts of a town have more black people in them, and why those parts of town are more dangerous, or have more instances of violent crime or arrests or police violence. The reason is history and systemic racism.

In fairness... No i am not. I said, THIS IS THE REAL PROBLEM. lol. But the interpretation of the info focuses on the wrong ones. And if it was 100% because of history then you wouldn't have had all the instances in the past(more recent past) where a lot of people had it better than they do now. So then you can't properly look at what is going wrong. And then you can't fix it properly.

 

[JickyJuly]

I enjoyed your post until I got to this part

there is no such thing as being racist against white people

If you believe that, you haven't traveled into the bad parts of town you're talking about.

 

[SexySteph]

I enjoyed your post until I got to this part

If you believe that, you haven't traveled into the bad parts of town you're talking about.

I believe she's speaking of systematic racism rather than simple discrimination. Because yes, someone might hate a white person for being white or harass a white person for their skin color but it's entirely different from systematic racism which is the real problem.

 

[JickyJuly]

I believe she's speaking of systematic racism rather than simple discrimination. Because yes, someone might hate a white person for being white or harass a white person for their skin color but it's entirely different from systematic racism which is the real problem.

You're probably right. I think that's happened here before. Bad wording.

 

[LuckySmiles]

I believe she's speaking of systematic racism rather than simple discrimination. Because yes, someone might hate a white person for being white or harass a white person for their skin color but it's entirely different from systematic racism which is the real problem.

Disagree. There are places in America where Arabs have the power, where blacks have the power, where italians have the power, etc etc. And I'm not just referring to criminal gangs, I'm referring to business owners and politicians, court judges as well. This is why this argument is flawed.

If corruption is focused on as corruption instead of constantly turned into a racial issue, it is much easier to fight.

 

[SexySteph]

Disagree. There are places in America where Arabs have the power, where blacks have the power, where italians have the power, etc etc. And I'm not just referring to criminal gangs, I'm referring to business owners and politicians, court judges as well. This is why this argument is flawed.

If corruption is focused on as corruption instead of constantly turned into a racial issue, it is much easier to fight.

Those places are the minority. In the majority of the US, POC are not the ones that hold the power.

 

[LuckySmiles]

Those places are the minority. In the majority of the US, POC are not the ones that hold the power.

But it does not matter. Power by its nature corrupts, and if you don't deal with that it will always be there just trading places. I can use a TON of personal examples of this but I tend to get too personal with these things as it is.

 

[SexySteph]

But it does not matter. Power by its nature corrupts, and if you don't deal with that it will always be there just trading places. I can use a TON of personal examples of this but I tend to get too personal with these things as it is.

So it's just coincidence that white people have most of the power in the US and has nothing to do with systematic racism?