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Who would you vote for?

  • Donald Trump

  • Hillary Clinton

  • Bernie Sanders

  • Gary Johnson (Libertarian Party)

  • Jill Stein (Green Party)

  • Other

  • None


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I have heard a lot of people compare Trump to a dictator, but this quote from a Somali cab driver, when asked what the thinks of Trump, kind of closed that debate for me:

"Well, actually, I quite like him but I do not think he likes me....In Africa, someone like Trump would not bother with election. He would take power with a gun and have Hillary Clinton thrown out of a helicopter… like Mobutu.”

From this article, which is not much of an article, except this quote is golden!
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...lot-of-americans-seem-curiously-a6794021.html
Some merit to that. I wonder, would he do that if he was able to at this point?

In light of the expanded powers our government under the War on Terrorism; how might Trump react in the face of another major, perhaps even worse attack?
 
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Some merit to that. I wonder, would he do that if he was able to at this point?

In light of the expanded powers our government under the War on Terrorism; how might Trump react in the face of another major, perhaps even worse attack?

I just read this and found it to be good food for thought: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-donald-trump-president-dictator-20160525-story.html

It takes a more realistic approach than comparing him to Hitler or Mobutu.
 
You didn't really answer my question as to who is going to set these standards.

Yes, generally most people find murder, theft, and rape morally reprehensible BUT two of those aren't always found morally wrong in all situations. Stealing to feed your children, murdering your abuser, etc. Morals clearly aren't black or white.

Also, do morals only apply to those 3 things? Is premarital sex morally wrong? Littering? Prostitution? Spanking your children? Abortion? All of these have people that say yes and people that say no. So who is right? Who is the great moral compass that we should all follow?

Theft is always wrong, period.

Killing someone abusing you isn't 'murder,' in as much as they are aggression on you, they are assaulting you. Morals actually ARE far more black and white than folks try to say. They can be iffy but those examples are clear cut.

The fundamental principle of morality (and the only one that matters in terms of 'enforcement') is that aggression against a persons person or property is morally wrong. That can be fundamentally established, based on the fact of self-ownership. Voluntary exchange between two people cannot be considered immoral in this way. It's not about what folks can say yes or no about, it's what they can rationally argue.

So, I was gonna say: you are never gonna have a country where everyone agrees on the principles on which their society is based. Not everyone is a gonna agree on all that stuff. It's too much stuff and there's too many people. I think that maybe the one baseline that everyone needs to accept or agree to accept, is that there has to be a way make decisions.

But maybe the point for Libertarians is that they don't even want those decisions to be part of society. Like, everyone makes decisions for themselves.

So then, I am like, but that's fucking anarchy. And now I am confused again about the difference between Libertarians and Anarchists. But maybe they are same zebra different stripe.

In truth, I see only two reasons to argue over baseline principles: first, it is fun; second, oppression. Do you really feel like you are being oppressed by being a Libertarian living in America? If so, then carry on.

In many ways, libertarians and varieties of anarchists are closely related, an many anarchists consider themselves libertarians as well. I also don't want to say never when it comes to how things will be organized. I think, particularly with technology, things will become more and more possible.

I disagree over those being the only two options for arguing baselines, but rather I'd argue it's always best to establish baselines for arguing anything. It IS fun, but that's just an aside.

As for oppression? Arguably yes, to various degrees, everyone is oppressed by the current statist system.
 
It's not about what folks can say yes or no about, it's what they can rationally argue.
You keep saying this but I don't think it means what you want it to mean.

You can have a rational argument for or against anything you like. Having a rational argument for or against something doesn't determine the morality of that thing.
 
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You keep saying this but I don't think it means what you want it to mean.

You can have a rational argument for or against anything you like. Having a rational argument for or against something doesn't determine the morality of that thing.

That doesn't mean you can rationally argue something is true. Logically and rationally arguing what is moral and ethical is the only way to establish what IS.

To wit: you own yourself, because you exclusively have the ability to control yourself and thus are exclusively responsible for your actions. By extension, you own the results of your labor and so on. Thus, from that core principle of self ownership flows all property rights. Because you have that right to self ownership, and an exclusive claim, anyone aggressing against you is a violation of that, and thus immoral. By extension, because your property rights are an extension of your right to self-ownership, aggression against your property is also immoral.

You claim to say morality is subjective, yet you said that sometimes things aren't morally wrong in all circumstances and that "Morals clearly aren't black or white." Yet this language implies there IS a objective moral standard, it's just murky. Because for morals to be subjective, it wouldn't be that SOMETIMES these things are right and sometimes they aren't, it would be they are moral or immoral purely based on the subjective desires of the individual. Murder would never be morally wrong OR morally right because of circumstances, only based on the subjective view of the individual. Our social order is built on the idea that some things are objectively morally wrong, and even you're operating off that, even if you think you're no t.

After all, if morality is subjective, are you going to then imply its based on a majority opinion of society in what we enforce? I don't think that's a route you want to go down.
 
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Except it wasn't a dove that landed on Bernie's lectern. It was some random, tiny bird, that as far as I know, no one has even identified as far as species.

We need to identify this bird . Is crucial.
Forget the heart and intuition. Only intellect must be used from now on.
not dove - not the same = safe.
not a communist- democratic socialist.He said so himself.
Also... he has a different name.
His name is Bernie!!!
Not Stalin. Not Fidel.See?u r safe. Is a different situation.
(Actually using only intellect and no intuition at all is what they want you to do...)
 
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In many ways, libertarians and varieties of anarchists are closely related, an many anarchists consider themselves libertarians as well. I also don't want to say never when it comes to how things will be organized. I think, particularly with technology, things will become more and more possible.

I disagree over those being the only two options for arguing baselines, but rather I'd argue it's always best to establish baselines for arguing anything. It IS fun, but that's just an aside.

As for oppression? Arguably yes, to various degrees, everyone is oppressed by the current statist system.

Yes there is a lot of oppression in countries like America and Canada. I am not sure wanting a different political system falls into oppression, but I might think differently if I lived in North Korea, I guess. Is this why you want things to based on Libertarian ideas? Do you think it would be less oppressive? I guess I would like to know what motivates you or why you relate to this ideology.

As for technology, are you saying technology would make a Libertarian society more possible?

Should we start a new thread? This is getting way off topic. Sorry everyone.
 
To wit: you own yourself, because you exclusively have the ability to control yourself and thus are exclusively responsible for your actions. By extension, you own the results of your labor and so on. Thus, from that core principle of self ownership flows all property rights. Because you have that right to self ownership, and an exclusive claim, anyone aggressing against you is a violation of that, and thus immoral. By extension, because your property rights are an extension of your right to self-ownership, aggression against your property is also immoral.

So morals, in your opinion, come down to property rights?

You claim to say morality is subjective, yet you said that sometimes things aren't morally wrong in all circumstances and that "Morals clearly aren't black or white." Yet this language implies there IS a objective moral standard,
That's exactly what subjective is. It depends on the situation, it depends on the person viewing it.

After all, if morality is subjective, are you going to then imply its based on a majority opinion of society in what we enforce? I don't think that's a route you want to go down.

No, I'm suggesting that morals are subjective, we each have our own set of morals and laws =/= morality.
 
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Companies cater to who is paying them, why would they cater to 'the group?' The behavior of the government won't be found it companies because the government is not subject to market pressures. It is, in essence, a monopoly backed up by force. Humans would be corrupt, but the market incentives to root out corruption would be greater, and the rewards lesser for engaging in it.
The blue: Good point. They would cater to whoever had money (I was so worried about tripping you up with the word 'society' again I lost sight of that). With no more oversight than an understanding that everyone respect liberty and freedom?
The red: Market incentives to engage in corruption would not be present? Short term/long term rewards...I'd love to hear why you believe this. If you respond, and it's long, do me a favor and spoiler it. These long posts are hell on the eyes.
 
Yes there is a lot of oppression in countries like America and Canada. I am not sure wanting a different political system falls into oppression, but I might think differently if I lived in North Korea, I guess. Is this why you want things to based on Libertarian ideas? Do you think it would be less oppressive? I guess I would like to know what motivates you or why you relate to this ideology.

As for technology, are you saying technology would make a Libertarian society more possible?

Should we start a new thread? This is getting way off topic. Sorry everyone.

I'd honestly be super interested in a thread about what an ideal government would look like to different people. I think that sort of thing is very interesting. I took a class once on dystopian and utopian societies in literature, and it opened the door for lots of conversations about people's ideas of what an ideal society would look like. A lot of these socialist vs. libertarian ideas were touched on in group discussions, and I always found it interesting.
 
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We need to identify this bird . Is crucial.
Forget the heart and intuition. Only intellect must be used from now on.
not dove - not the same = safe.
not a communist- democratic socialist.He said so himself.
Also... he has a different name.
His name is Bernie!!!
Not Stalin. Not Fidel.See?u r safe. Is a different situation.
(Actually using only intellect and no intuition at all is what they want you to do...)
This whole bird thing is sounding more akin to loose associations and superstition than communist oppression.
 
Yes there is a lot of oppression in countries like America and Canada. I am not sure wanting a different political system falls into oppression, but I might think differently if I lived in North Korea, I guess. Is this why you want things to based on Libertarian ideas? Do you think it would be less oppressive? I guess I would like to know what motivates you or why you relate to this ideology.

By it's nature, yes, the more libertarian principles applied, the less oppressive it would be, to the ultimate fact that without a state, there is no state-based oppression. Don't get me wrong, I think America is largely LESS oppressive than other countries, but that doesn't mean the state institutions aren't still oppressive.

So partly, yes, I want it because of that, but more directly, I want it because it's the right thing.

As for technology, are you saying technology would make a Libertarian society more possible?

Absolutely. The rise of modern technology and free communication is key, I think, going forward.

Should we start a new thread? This is getting way off topic. Sorry everyone.

Yeah, probably. :p

So morals, in your opinion, come down to property rights?

Morals that can be enforced? Pretty much. My own personal moral code is its own thing. Ultimately, on my property, I could enforce those morals, but I have no right to impose them beyond those borders.

That's exactly what subjective is. It depends on the situation, it depends on the person viewing it.

That's not what morals being subjective means, though. Because ultimately that still appeals to an objective moral standard. IE: murder is, by this standard wrong, except in these cases. That still cites murder as being objectively wrong, except in these cases. I'd argue those 'exceptions' don't actually exist, mind you; the acts described just aren't murder.

No, I'm suggesting that morals are subjective, we each have our own set of morals and laws =/= morality.

But laws and morals are intrinsically linked? A law is moral or immoral precisely because of that reason. Further, your definition of subjective morality isn't really... subjective morality.

The blue: Good point. They would cater to whoever had money (I was so worried about tripping you up with the word 'society' again I lost sight of that). With no more oversight than an understanding that everyone respect liberty and freedom?

They would respect who paid them, yes, just as they should. And so long as what they're paid for doesn't violate the rights of others, it's entirely fair game. The principles here don't have to HAVE everyone 'respect liberty and freedom' on a conceptual basis, it simply creates incentives that doing so is the most profitable.

The red: Market incentives to engage in corruption would not be present? Short term/long term rewards...I'd love to hear why you believe this. If you respond, and it's long, do me a favor and spoiler it. These long posts are hell on the eyes.

I don't think it'll be long, but I'll spoiler it just in case.

I'm assuming, in this, we have a general agreed upon view of what corruption is. Citing a dictionary for the hell of it though, "dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery." While I'm here I'll address waste and inefficiency as well. First, corruption. What is corruption in a market sense? Largely, it would be bribing officials, which don't exist in a free market. Indeed, without a state regulatory apparatus to capture, the capital invested in that instead becomes more profitable to invest in the actual business. Further, the short term/long term rewards don't really matter because short term gains will be drummed out of the market. THis is linked to the waste issue. The state has no competition and no profit motive, and so waste is not considered an issue. In a free market, though, waste is a killer, because the less wasteful company or person will outperform the wasteful one. Likewise, inefficiency actually HELPS the state, because it is in the state interest to grow the amount of people working for the state, and thus increase state power directly that way. By contrast, inefficient companies will be outdone by efficient companies, all else being equal.

Where things become unequal is the presence of the state, who can be manipulated and bought, IE: regulatory capture. Without a state, there is not much left to be corrupt about.
 
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Nominally, I'd argue its better here than elsewhere, but that does not mean here is not a problem. However, your error is that you attribute the compromise due to the mandates of 'community/society/nation.' This is wrong. It's due to the state, which is not synonymous with community, society, or nation. Society can exist in as much as it is voluntary. Though I don't agree with all of it, Practical Anarchy is a good start in many ways.

Anytime two or more people gather together to form a social unit (a household, a family, a workplace/town/city/state/nation) there will be conflict because each member has different needs, interests, abilities, weaknesses, strengths, etc. Politics is the process by which these differences are recognized and prioritized, with decisions being made to resolve those differences in such a way that the social unit's goals are achieved. (The social unit's goals ideally arise--even if imperfectly-- from the needs of the members, but not necessarily: e.g., dictatorships, traditional workplaces). These decisions necessarily injure the "pure liberty" of everyone in the social unit, because the members are all different and the decision is always a compromise of some sort.

It isn't about society accommodating itself to you, it's about your rights as an individual mattering. Democracy is no justification for tyranny. Something does not become morally or ethically sound because 51% of the population voted for it. The 'popular will' carries no more moral weight than it does physical weight.

Leave aside morality. I'm not convinced that's the best way to think of it, except in the case of (for example) the founding principles of the US, which were driven by Enlightenment ideals of the worth of individuals vis-à-vis the state, the crown, etc. Leaving aside those historically recent ideals, the problem is always reducible to how a social unit manifests its reasons for existence, how it's organized, and how the individuals within it are affected as a result. I think there has been a historical trend toward balancing the calculation more and more in the individual member's favor. But even under the most ideal, enlightened conditions, with human nature being what it is, there are always going to be differences that have to be resolved--through politics.

When I said that it would be unreasonable to expect society to accommodate itself to me, I was suggesting a thought experiment in which my interests and desires are a minority view, and the actions of the social unit's majority thereby diminish my liberty. It's true: my liberty has been compromised. But that's an unavoidable consequence of how my social group has chosen to resolve the conflict. They (we) chose to use majority rule, which is one way of doing it, but not the only way. If it wasn't majority rule, it would still entail a political process of some sort, which means--at best--compromise, which means winners and losers on the issue in question. I don't see how it can be otherwise if you are choosing to live in a social group.

If you succeeded in a political goal such as reducing or eliminating taxes, you would regard that as an enhancement to your liberty. On the other hand, I might regard the same action as a diminishment of my liberty (maybe I like to breathe clean air, and you've eliminated the EPA). Again, if you're living in the social group we call the USA, how can you, even in principle, secure liberty for yourself without taking it from others?

I'll look up Practical Anarchy. BTW, in the latest New Yorker, there's a profile of Gary Johnson, the libertarian presidential candidate. He seems like an interesting person, not a typical politician. I don't plan on voting for him, but if it was between him and Trump, I'd definitely vote for Johnson. He's been a governor (NM), and he's started and built "real" businesses.
 
In fbi classes they teach there no such thing as superstition - if same clue shows up in ya face many times- the simple answer is it is just a clue and...you need to pay attention.
Intuition is not superstition. Even scientists use it...but it should only be used as a direction to investigate. The intuit itself means nothing. If your intuition turns out to be true...after gathering evidence and nothing is falsified, you can go on to the next step--hypothesis. Before that, intuition is ephemera.
 
In fbi classes they teach there no such thing as superstition - if same clue shows up in ya face many times- the simple answer is it is just a clue and...you need to pay attention.
Well, just in case some damning evidence comes forth that puts Hillary out and Bernie back in, I hope the CIA is training some assassin cats to sneak in and steal his breath.
 
Anytime two or more people gather together to form a social unit (a household, a family, a workplace/town/city/state/nation) there will be conflict because each member has different needs, interests, abilities, weaknesses, strengths, etc. Politics is the process by which these differences are recognized and prioritized, with decisions being made to resolve those differences in such a way that the social unit's goals are achieved. (The social unit's goals ideally arise--even if imperfectly-- from the needs of the members, but not necessarily: e.g., dictatorships, traditional workplaces). These decisions necessarily injure the "pure liberty" of everyone in the social unit, because the members are all different and the decision is always a compromise of some sort.

These decisions need not injure pure liberty at all. I think the implication they must is inherently a wrong one. The only time liberty is injured is when the individual's desires are ignored, at which point we can't really say the 'social unit's goals are achieved' because they are done so at the expense of a member of the social unit.

Leave aside morality. I'm not convinced that's the best way to think of it, except in the case of (for example) the founding principles of the US, which were driven by Enlightenment ideals of the worth of individuals vis-à-vis the state, the crown, etc. Leaving aside those historically recent ideals, the problem is always reducible to how a social unit manifests its reasons for existence, how it's organized, and how the individuals within it are affected as a result. I think there has been a historical trend toward balancing the calculation more and more in the individual member's favor. But even under the most ideal, enlightened conditions, with human nature being what it is, there are always going to be differences that have to be resolved--through politics.

I plainly refuse. You cannot 'leave aside morality.' Morality must be center to all of this, because without it we have nothing. Of course things will need to be resolved, but that no more necessitates a state than anything else, either.

When I said that it would be unreasonable to expect society to accommodate itself to me, I was suggesting a thought experiment in which my interests and desires are a minority view, and the actions of the social unit's majority thereby diminish my liberty. It's true: my liberty has been compromised. But that's an unavoidable consequence of how my social group has chosen to resolve the conflict. They (we) chose to use majority rule, which is one way of doing it, but not the only way. If it wasn't majority rule, it would still entail a political process of some sort, which means--at best--compromise, which means winners and losers on the issue in question. I don't see how it can be otherwise if you are choosing to live in a social group.

Ultimately, all interests are the minority view, because social units are abstractions, and ultimately the smallest minority and yet also only true political entity is the individual. Further, only individuals have rights, and thus the ultimate standard by which we measure must be based on the individual, not the subjectively defined group. It's not 'unavoidable' at all, the group is choosing to abridge your rights. That is not 'unavoidable,' because it can be avoided by them not choosing to do that, and that is the moral choice. Further, this argument that there must always be winners and losers is misguided, because that is not really the case. In a market exchange, both parties are winners, in as much as they are voluntarily exchanging. If person a trades an apple for a pencil, they value the pencil more than they value the apple, and vise versa for person b. Both of them are winning in this exchange, there is no loser.

If you succeeded in a political goal such as reducing or eliminating taxes, you would regard that as an enhancement to your liberty. On the other hand, I might regard the same action as a diminishment of my liberty (maybe I like to breathe clean air, and you've eliminated the EPA). Again, if you're living in the social group we call the USA, how can you, even in principle, secure liberty for yourself without taking it from others?

Ok, but you're be objectively wrong to state it is a diminishment of your liberty. Your example also rings hollow, because saying eliminating the EPA would lead to unbreathable air isn't really logical, for one. For two, talking about what you 'like' isn't relevant. You seem to have this strange idea of what liberty is. Not taxing does not deny anyone else liberty, because they are not entitled to anything bought for with taxes in the first place.

I'll look up Practical Anarchy. BTW, in the latest New Yorker, there's a profile of Gary Johnson, the libertarian presidential candidate. He seems like an interesting person, not a typical politician. I don't plan on voting for him, but if it was between him and Trump, I'd definitely vote for Johnson. He's been a governor (NM), and he's started and built "real" businesses.

Gary Johnson is basically just a Republican, and not a very good one. He's weak on principles and is frankly one of the worst examples of libertarian ideals, frankly speaking.
 
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Intuition is not superstition. Even scientists use it...but it should only be used as a direction to investigate. The intuit itself means nothing. If your intuition turns out to be true...after gathering evidence and nothing is falsified, you can go on to the next step--hypothesis. Before that, intuition is ephemera.
I dint think u tried real intuition. You should. Is amazing and always true.It has nothing to do with logic.
Will google what u wrote cause like learning new stuff and that last word I don't know.
 
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These decisions need not injure pure liberty at all. I think the implication they must is inherently a wrong one. The only time liberty is injured is when the individual's desires are ignored, at which point we can't really say the 'social unit's goals are achieved' because they are done so at the expense of a member of the social unit.

So how are decisions to be made? By consensus? In my experience consensus is a nightmare to achieve. And that is based on pretty small groups of people. Larger groups would make me poke my eyes out.
 
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I dint think u tried real intuition. You should. Is amazing and always true.It has nothing to do with logic.
Will google what u wrote cause like learning new stuff and that last word I don't know.
ephemera: a short lived thing. Something with no substance. Intuition is not "fortune telling." It's the ability to draw inferences from many, sometimes seemingly random bits of information. But no, it's not always true. It gives humans an edge, but if you treat it like gospel...it could be dangerous. Always investigate intuits if they are about important things.
 
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look if u trying to understand what intuition is using intellectual path u will never get there
 
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look if u trying to understand what intuition is using intellectual path u will never get there
I know what it is. I'm not trying to understand. I am there. I know some people think it's some mystic power; I understand that too. I just don't believe in superstition.
 
@AmberCutie , someone upthread suggested making a new thread for libertarianism/anarchism, since it's a bit peripheral to this thread's topic. That sounds like a good idea to me.

----

Also, I found a couple of resources that look like they will be helpful in understanding libertarianism:

Cato Institute: Key Concepts of Libertarianism (one page, easy reading)

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: "Libertarianism" (Much denser/academic, but may be helpful in understanding the nuances and philosophical roots)

I think much of the problem I and others have had in discussing this with Behemoth is related to not understanding the precise meaning of certain terms and concepts such as liberty in the philosophical framework of libertarianism. Their notion of liberty arises from the libertarians' conception of the self/individual and how that self relates to other selves.
 
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I know what it is. I'm not trying to understand. I am there. I know some people think it's some mystic power; I understand that too. I just don't believe in superstition.

If you know the MBTI you will know that according to Jung's theory intuition is a mode of perceiving reality opposed to sensing. Sensing looks for concrete data in the external world and can only go from 1 point to the next in a lineal way. Intuition is more interested in finding patterns and meaning in a sea of data. It is more chaotic and fallible, but helps you to cut corners to arrive to the truth faster. We all use both but most people have a preference for one or the other.

Here are some good reads if you are interested in nkowing more:

Sensing Vs Intuition

Introverted intuition

Extraverted intuition

MBTI is pretty interesting and useful, and fun to think about.
 
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I think much of the problem I and others have had in discussing this with Behemoth is related to not understanding the precise meaning of certain terms and concepts such as liberty in the philosophical framework of libertarianism. Their notion of liberty arises from the libertarians' conception of the self/individual and how that self relates to other selves.
100% agree here. I'm a libertarian socialist, near as you might get to putting me in a pile that has a name. Maybe some people would like to call me an anarchist or a nihilist. Those are close. Doesn't matter to me what you call me, but it's an issue if people want to see a label and make assumptions.
 
If you know the MBTI you will know that according to Jung's theory intuition is a mode of perceiving reality opposed to sensing. Sensing looks for concrete data in the external world and can only go from 1 point to the next in a lineal way. Intuition is more interested in finding patterns and meaning in a sea of data. It is more chaotic and fallible, but helps you to cut corners to arrive to the truth faster. We all use both but most people have a preference for one or the other.

Here are some good reads if you are interested in nkowing more:

Sensing Vs Intuition

Introverted intuition

Extraverted intuition

MBTI is pretty interesting and useful, and fun to think about.
Yeah, that's what I've been trying to say. I agree.
 
If you know the MBTI you will know that according to Jung's theory intuition is a mode of perceiving reality opposed to sensing. Sensing looks for concrete data in the external world and can only go from 1 point to the next in a lineal way. Intuition is more interested in finding patterns and meaning in a sea of data. It is more chaotic and fallible, but helps you to cut corners to arrive to the truth faster. We all use both but most people have a preference for one or the other.

Here are some good reads if you are interested in nkowing more:

Sensing Vs Intuition

Introverted intuition

Extraverted intuition

MBTI is pretty interesting and useful, and fun to think about.

Care to share, Mila? :) For example, I'm INTJ (the N is pretty close to the middle--i.e., close to being S)

It is fun, and useful for understanding yourself and what types of things you will be good at, or drawn to.
 
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