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Oct 31, 2013
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This man (in the glasses), claiming to be a guy named "Joey Smith" from Australia scammed a new model into giving a free Skype show by sending a paypal echeck for $1200 then reversing it the next day.

(removed personal identifying information)

I realize the model may have been too trusting and has learned her lesson. Nonetheless, it is sick and wrong, practically rape, what (he) did to her.
 
I wouldn't go as far as saying it's practically rape.... But yes, getting a model to do a show for someone and not paying them when the model thinks she is going to be paid is extremely wrong and not cool.

It's not rape though. If it were rape, then so would be a guy making out to a girl he really likes her, sleeping with her and then leaving. It's a ridiculously shitty thing to do, but it's not rape. Sure she probably wouldn't have slept with him if not for the pretence, but it's still not rape. Neither is this. It's what you've said, it's a scam. And it is good for other girls to be warned of scammers like this. I'm just not sure who you are and why it's you who is warning us and not the model in question....
 
I realize accepting paypal is against terms of service both from MFC and Paypal itself and don't want to get my friend in trouble. Smart scammers realize that she has no recourse with either website and must simply live and learn.

She has received thousands of tokens her first few days and was enjoying it before the scam. Perhaps making the "practically rape" comparison was a bit dramatic. Nonetheless there can be a fine line between voluntary nude modeling and sexual exploitation. From a psychological perspective, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir when I say camming can be tough. The key factor is that the woman must feel like everything she chooses to do is within her control and volition based upon self-determined remuneration.

But enough psycho-babble. "Joey Smith" is a D-bag. Tell your friends. :cool:

Skype name= anis2anis12
 
If she'd read the Paypal tos, she'd know that adult wares are not allowed and that Paypal always favors the buyer over the seller. If Paypal just takes the money and doesn't ban her from future use, she's lucky. People in business should use their brains. There's no reason for her to get emotional over her own bad business move. Telling everyone the name of this douche is also pointless because there are thousands of him out there waiting to use the same tired scam on girls who aren't running their game right. Furthermore, your comparison to rape is idiotic at best and offensive at worst.
 
Thanks for posting this. :) It seems like you're obviously very upset for your friend, and I don't think its a bad thing to post the name of someone who does this publically... at the very least, it would avoid me wasting time with him.

I don't know why everyone is getting on your case CptCuddly, tbh..besides the rape thing..which you've already said was overdramatic.
 
Miss_Lollipop said:
Thanks for posting this. :) It seems like you're obviously very upset for your friend, and I don't think its a bad thing to post the name of someone who does this publically... at the very least, it would avoid me wasting time with him.

I don't know why everyone is getting on your case CptCuddly, tbh..besides the rape thing..which you've already said was overdramatic.

You're thanking someone for posting unsubstantiated allegations together with a facebook page?
Someone who appears to have joined 2 hours ago.
 
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Miss_Lollipop said:
Thanks for posting this. :) It seems like you're obviously very upset for your friend, and I don't think its a bad thing to post the name of someone who does this publically... at the very least, it would avoid me wasting time with him.

I don't know why everyone is getting on your case CptCuddly, tbh..besides the rape thing..which you've already said was overdramatic.
Posting someones RL information is never ok. Site usernames and such are fine, but posting RL Facebook and legal name is not.
 
CaptainCuddly said:
a bit dramatic. Nonetheless there can be a fine line between voluntary nude modeling and sexual exploitation.

The line between voluntary nude modeling and sexual exploitation is really fucking ginormous. Whether your friend got paid or not, she was modeling voluntarily and she got naked voluntarily. She wasn't kidnapped or under mind control or drugged and there was no gun to her head. She was just greedy and has no one but herself to blame. The offer was obviously for way too much money, and she has no one but herself to blame.

And tell her to act like a big girl and register here herself.
 
Mymilkshake said:
Sevrin said:
CaptainCuddly said:
She was just greedy and has no one but herself to blame. The offer was obviously for way too much money, and she has no one but herself to blame.

Wait.. what?? Sorry dude, this is a business. I'm not going to let that statement fly.

Your post is like shouting "I object" but not giving any reason why.

because its a business you should be more naive?

ComicOzzie puts it a bit nicer than Sevrin. But both are true.
 
Okay, so she was naive and trusted someone--with a little human greed thrown in. That to me does not exonerate the perp. He's still a douche. Anyone who hasn't been taken in during their life by a dickhead hasn't really lived.

I do agree that she should be here speaking for herself though.
 
Swarles123 said:
Mymilkshake said:
Sevrin said:
CaptainCuddly said:
She was just greedy and has no one but herself to blame. The offer was obviously for way too much money, and she has no one but herself to blame.

Wait.. what?? Sorry dude, this is a business. I'm not going to let that statement fly.

Your post is like shouting "I object" but not giving any reason why.

because its a business you should be more naive?

ComicOzzie puts it a bit nicer than Sevrin. But both are true.

OK here are my reasons why:

1) As previously stated, this is a business. First and foremost we are here for business. To assume any cam model is performing on the web because she is a whore, a slut, greedy, on drugs or any other negative stereotype is a gross miscarriage of information. We come from all backgrounds; single mom's paying when the deadbeat dad disappears, unemployed professionals unable to find our place in the mainstream workforce and need the continue to generate an income, college women paying tuition one semester at a time, women who may have mental or physical health issues and are otherwise unable to maintain a career, and the list goes on. No matter what our background, what binds us together is this is a business and we are here for our survival. Please don't misinterpret this. I'm not saying YOU or anyone else here believes we are sluts, whores, greedy, on drugs or any other negative stereotype. What I am saying is, it is a popular misconception of most. We are here for the money. To earn for our survival.

2) A tip, gesture, tribute or payment that may seem out of the ordinary for YOU is actually quite common with many others, especially to those of us in the femdom/findom side of it. Likewise many of us are simply blessed with generous customers who want to see us succeed at achieving our goals (college, making a bill on time, a day of relaxation at the spa...). It is not unusual to receive "large payments". I personally have someone who tips $2500 regularly. While it's always a pleasant surprise, it's never truly unbelievable or shocking.

3) Without speaking to the supposed victim, we don't know what the agreement was. There are rules on every commercial website that forbid certain acts from being performed. As a result, fans of these acts will do whatever they see fit to have their desires met. If it means paying $5000 they won't hesitate. They will record it, take stills from it and relive the moment over and over and over again. It's the nature of the beast.

4) There is nothing unusual about any sizable tip. Period. Gold show countdowns are the perfect example. How many times have you seen a guy buy out the show? There's $300 left to make the goal - BAM! There it is. Yes, I realize $300 is not $1200 but it's just another example of why it's not so unbelievable for a cam model to accept a private show of the price. I've also heard stories of women on MFC having walls of tokens and high contributors within that wall. They happen every day, all around the web.

What I find particularly disturbing is the level of obtuseness towards the young lady. Yes, she made a couple of mistakes and as a result of her oversights she got burned but to imply or otherwise state (as some here have) she deserved to be conned for being "greedy" crosses the line in my opinion. She's not being greedy. She's taking advantage of an offer that was presented to her as part of her work. Naive maybe, but greedy, no... and even though she was naive enough to take a first time customer at his word, she did not necessarily deserve it either.

The guy was clearly acting in a predatory manner. He probably knows she is a newer model and prayed on her hope and on her nativity. He took advantage. Greed has nothing to do with it. Now, speaking only from my own heart and not representing any other web model; My body is my temple. I love myself and my body. My body belongs to ME. I do with my body what I feel COMFORTABLE with. To say I am not comfortable with showing my wares on the internet is accurate, however, within my own set of boundaries I have negotiated with myself a set of rules. These rules include how far I am willing to take it and at what price. I can assure you, as a softcore performer, I would never agree to put on a full on hardcore show for anything less than my set price which is $14.99 per minute. $1200 comes quick at that price. Am I greedy?........ and after the show, what kind of dickwipe would scam me and take it all back? THAT in my opinion is more than just greed. He has a lack of respect probably not only for web performers but all women in general. He played with her like his personal toy, manipulated her and left her feeling, "raped". In a sense, it is rape. It was not with her consent.

Have you have had something taken from you? Have you ever not been paid after performing your work? Have you ever had someone renege on a contractual agreement? If you have, perhaps it's why some of us have more empathy than others. Maybe you are tighter with your wallet and don't feel spending higher dollar amounts is reasonable within your budget, it doesn't make her eagerness to accept the offer less viable because when there is one who wont there are always two who will.
 
Sevrin said:
CaptainCuddly said:
a bit dramatic. Nonetheless there can be a fine line between voluntary nude modeling and sexual exploitation.

The line between voluntary nude modeling and sexual exploitation is really fucking ginormous. Whether your friend got paid or not, she was modeling voluntarily and she got naked voluntarily. She wasn't kidnapped or under mind control or drugged and there was no gun to her head. She was just greedy and has no one but herself to blame. The offer was obviously for way too much money, and she has no one but herself to blame.

And tell her to act like a big girl and register here herself.


I meant to click quote instead of thank because I whole-heartedly disagree with you.


While it's overly dramatic to compare this situation to sexual assault, it's just plain stupid to say she was asking for it because she is a slut. She agreed to model nude under certain conditions-- one of those conditions was that she would be paid. This isn't the case of a woman crying foul after walking around naked in public and later trying to sue the people who had photographed her.

Again, I disagree that this is like being raped but it is still wrong, and conditions matter in sexual harassment, assault, and rape cases. People have successfully won court cases when they had sex under false pretenses. In some cases it CAN be considered rape if the man says he will use a condom and then pulls it off at the last moment to ejaculate inside his partner. Why? Because the agreed to have sex with him if he used a condom. If a man let his girlfriend take nude photos of him under the condition that they were for her eyes only, and she distributes them around his office and on the Internet, that's still ultra shitty and I wouldn't say it was his fault. It doesn't matter if these people acted "voluntarily" because there were still conditions, explicit or implicit, at play. And your argument that she wasn't drugged or physically forced sounds dangerously like a "legitimate rape" argument.

But if your argument is that she deserves it because money was meant to change hands and she is a greedy whore, well that is just silly. Yes she was naive. Yes she should have read paypal TOS. But if a person makes a business offer to anyone and then scams them, it's still a scam. A waitress is not responsible for a dine-and-day because she should have known those people wouldn't pay for that much food. If someone came to me and asked me to paint them a dinosaur for $5000, then never paid me for my work, that would be wrong of them! Yes I should have figured a secure payment method, and been wary of the price tag. But I wouldn't deserve it because I was being greedy. That just fucking stupid.
 
Just adding that yesterday I ran a series of $1 gold shows. At the end of the day I checked the tags on my profile and saw "greedy bitch".

I don't know about you but all I have to do is vacuum my car or go couch diving to come up with 4 quarters. It's not a high dollar amount.
There are some guys who feel entitled to enjoy my personality, to get off on my form and to view my show for free simply because I'm here and they are there.

Am I really greedy for charging a $1 admission? At what price are we no longer greedy?

It is not OK to agree to a price, pay it and take it back after the show.
it is not OK to bait and switch.
It is not OK to mislead a woman into performing sexual favors.
It is not OK to exert power in any form to achieve sexual gratification OVER someone else.

What he did is NOT OK. lets stop turning the tables and see it for what it really is. It's a COMMON tactic (the power play) men use against women and it leaves us feeling devastated, dirty, used and powerless.
 
I never said that she was "asking for it" because she was a slut. In fact, sex has nothing to to with this. In order to be a sex worker, it is necessary to think in terms of sales, services and products, and not treat sex like a precious gift or a delicate flower. Sex workers can't expect society to treat sex work as just a normal part of life if they themselves insist on it being treated like something different.

This was more like skipping out on a tab at a really nice restaurant. Sucks for the waiter and the rest of the staff and the owner, but that's it.
 
Mymilkshake said:
Sevrin said:
She was just greedy and has no one but herself to blame. The offer was obviously for way too much money, and she has no one but herself to blame.
You're right. The people working at the restaurant were just conducting business as usual, rather than seriously thinking someone thought their newb-ass time was worth $1200 an hour.

Offers that are too good to be true come along all the time, and they are fraud artists' stock in trade. Everyone gets burnt once in a while. It doesn't mean the model in question was a bad person or even a dumb person. Greed gets the better of all of us once in a while.

With that said, we are getting all of this story second hand.
 
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Sevrin said:
You're right. The people working at the restaurant were just conducting business as usual, rather than seriously thinking someone thought their newb-ass time was worth $1200 an hour.

:happy1:
 
AmberCutie said:
Miss_Lollipop said:
Thanks for posting this. :) It seems like you're obviously very upset for your friend, and I don't think its a bad thing to post the name of someone who does this publically... at the very least, it would avoid me wasting time with him.

I don't know why everyone is getting on your case CptCuddly, tbh..besides the rape thing..which you've already said was overdramatic.
Posting someones RL information is never ok. Site usernames and such are fine, but posting RL Facebook and legal name is not.

I didn't see the real life information, sorry. Was pretty sleep deprived.
 
ComicOzzie said:
I'm sorry, but nobody is legitimately going to pay $1,200 for a Skype show. If it sounds too good to be true, its a scam.
Guys tip more than that for just a smile from the model. Why wouldit be hard to believe someone would tip that for something, when it happens all of the time for nothing?
 
Mymilkshake said:
In a sense, it is rape. It was not with her consent.

I agreed with your post except for the quote above. In no way shape or form was this a rape. In no way shape or form was it without her consent. With out a doubt ,the model in question was ripped off, she had a verbal contract breached and she has every right to be pissed. Whatever the model did in the show was 100% with her full consent. She just didn't get paid for it. that's not rape.
 
Rape trigger warning

OP, have you ever been raped??? Comparing something that sucks (like getting ripped off) to something horrifically life damaging is not okay. Consent or no consent, being ripped off is miles away from being forced to have sexual intercourse. So unless you know how it feels to have been raped, please refrain from making comparisons to something you can't possibly understand.

Edit: I know he said he was being over dramatic, but I didn't see an apology anywhere.
 
Sevrin said:
She was just greedy and has no one but herself to blame. The offer was obviously for way too much money, and she has no one but herself to blame.

This statement has some parallels with something a lot more sinister - but is worth pointing out...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/m ... k-clothing


No, you didn't intend anything remotely like that - but it is exhibiting the same form of blame culture upon a victim. It may have been "too good to be true", but that doesn't mean she's to blame. She isn't.
 
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Zoomer said:
Sevrin said:
She was just greedy and has no one but herself to blame. The offer was obviously for way too much money, and she has no one but herself to blame.

This statement has some parallels with something a lot more sinister - but is worth pointing out...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/m ... k-clothing


No, you didn't intend anything remotely like that - but it is exhibiting the same form of blame culture upon a victim. It may have been "too good to be true", but that doesn't mean she's to blame. She isn't.

Sex only tangentially has anything to do with what happened between the model and the scammer, so bringing talk of sexual morality into the discussion is a red herring. The model lost an hour, or whatever, of her time doing something she does for a living. Dentists get stiffed on their bills, too. Her honour and dignity of her person are not in question, whether money changed hands or not.
 
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Sevrin said:
Sex only tangentially has anything to do with what happened between the model and the scammer, so bringing talk of sexual morality into the discussion is a red herring. The model lost an hour, or whatever, of her time doing something she does for a living. Dentists get stiffed on their bills, too. Her honour and dignity of her person are not in question, whether money changed hands or not.


I'm directly referring to the "her own fault". Your bit about dentists and others is actually a red herring - unless you are saying that a dentist getting stiffed has no-one to blame but themselves too? You are blaming victims...

So my link is directly relevant to the put forward idea that a victim is at fault if they don't take adequate precautions... or didn't realise ahead of time their circumstances. Which is what the cop was saying... and yourself, albeit in differing circumstances.

Alarming how easy it is to start blaming victims, and the link was to ram this home with a very obvious instance of how this is not okay to do! Instead, you appear to misinterpret it and argue away?
 
Zoomer said:
Sevrin said:
Sex only tangentially has anything to do with what happened between the model and the scammer, so bringing talk of sexual morality into the discussion is a red herring. The model lost an hour, or whatever, of her time doing something she does for a living. Dentists get stiffed on their bills, too. Her honour and dignity of her person are not in question, whether money changed hands or not.


I'm directly referring to the "her own fault". Your bit about dentists and others is actually a red herring - unless you are saying that a dentist getting stiffed has no-one to blame but themselves too? You are blaming victims...

So my link is directly relevant to the put forward idea that a victim is at fault if they don't take adequate precautions... or didn't realise ahead of time their circumstances. Which is what the cop was saying... and yourself, albeit in differing circumstances.

Alarming how easy it is to start blaming victims, and the link was to ram this home with a very obvious instance of how this is not okay to do! Instead, you appear to misinterpret it and argue away?
Fraud is different from sexual assault, in that it comes in many different varieties. Fraud's allies are fear, weakness, ignorance and greed. In the case of the first three, I feel sympathy for the victims. If someone sends off money to some Nigerian prince, however, in the expectation of participating in proceeds of the looting of crown jewels, then I figure they had it coming.

In this case, if the story was that someone promised the model three or four hundred bucks for a Skype session, and then welshed, I would be as sympathetic as anyone. That's a lot closer to the norm, and it would be a case of someone getting screwed out of a reasonable amount. It's a lot harder to feel sympathy for someone expecting over a grand for the same session. And anyway, it's not $1,200 she got screwed out of; that's money that never existed. She is not a retiree who lost her life savings. She got screwed out of an hour or so of her time. It's a pretty small thing to get outraged over, as unpleasant as it is.
 
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Sevrin said:
Fraud is different from sexual assault, in that it comes in many different varieties. Fraud's allies are fear, weakness, ignorance and greed. In the case of the first three, I feel sympathy for the victims. If someone sends off money to some Nigerian prince, however, in the expectation of participating in proceeds of the looting of crown jewels, then I figure they had it coming.

In this case, if the story was that someone promised the model three or four hundred bucks for a Skype session, and then welshed, I would be as sympathetic as anyone. That's a lot closer to the norm, and it would be a case of someone getting screwed out of a reasonable amount. It's a lot harder to feel sympathy for someone expecting over a grand for the same session. And anyway, it's not $1,200 she got screwed out of; that's money that never existed. She is not a retiree who lost her life savings. She got screwed out of an hour or so of her time. It's a pretty small thing to get outraged over, as unpleasant as it is.

First, in the case of the Nigerian scam. It's still not their fault. It's true with as common as this is the odds are they should have heard about it. But it doesn't negate the fact that 100% of the blame still lies with the people pulling off the scam. And it still happens enough in the world that they are willing to send out billions of emails attempting variations on the theme. People still falling for it and sending money can still go to the police and report a crime. They aren't told, well you should have known better so get out of the precinct. That's just stupid to even think that. The person committing the fraud is 100% to blame, every time. The person being frauded was just gullible to the enticements of the fraud is all.

And second, yes she did get screwed out of $1200. It's basic contract law. She was offered a price for a service. She accepted. He did not put forth the agreed upon money. Therefore she is out the money. If this were any other business she could go to small claims court and sue him. Technically she could do that now. I'm sure she'd have enough evidence if she wanted to pursue it publicly.

Seriously, just trade this in your mind for any other profession. If she were a plumber and agreed to replace your toilet for $1200. Did the job and you didn't pay her that's fraud and she's out the $1200. She's not just out the hour of her time it took to do the job. That's just incredibly stupid and I can't believe someone even thinks that way. It's fraud.

And finally to all the people who keep saying they can't believe no one would ever tip $1200 for an hour skype. Do you spend any time on mfc at all? Do you even know what you're talking about? $1200 is nothing. There's way bigger tips done all the time for absolutely no specific reason. I was in MaryJane's room when she got tipped $23,352 just because she is cool. If you're thinking it's her fault because she should have known no one tips a measly $1200 for an hour skype, please come back down to reality.
 
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