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Why do people frown upon sex work?

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BabyGirlRed

I haven't posted recently, hopefully will be back soon!
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What does a prostitute, cam girl, porn star, stripper, and an office worker all have in common? They are all working for money.

I'm not a prostitute, nor do I plan to be one at this time. Do I see a problem with prostitution? Not at all. It's a job. I understand that it can be dangerous, but so can any other job. Life is naturally dangerous.

In every job there is, there is someone who does it well and someone who does poorly. Many people think of prostitutes as filthy, drug-addicted, STI-infested whores. Is this true? In some cases, yes. In other cases less noticed by those who are quick to judge, a prostitute is a clean, condom-wearing, intelligent business woman. Same goes for cam girls, porn stars, strippers, and office workers. We have the filthy ones, and we have the clean ones. We have the good, and we have the bad. So what is it about sex that makes it so different from every other job?

Good at painting.
Paints picture.
Sells picture.
$$$
No problem.

Good at sex/anything sexy.
Does something sexy.
Sells sexiness.
$$$
Filthy whore!

What the fuck is this bullshit? Why should sex be hidden? Good sex is like a good meal. If you're not getting it at home, you'll pay money for someone to give it to you. It's just a job, like any other, to give people what they want. I really don't see the difference. From selling sandwiches to selling sex, it's all just a job. We all need to get paid somehow!

So, what are your opinions? I know that a lot of people on this forum, if not all, think that cam girls are just fine. I'm speaking of all sex workers, though.

Why do you think sex work is frowned upon?
Do you agree with prostitutes/escorts?
Do you have any negative feelings towards any form of sex work? Of so, why?

I'm really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this topic.
 
Some people are just pissed at the thought of other people doing things that they either disapprove of or would feel guilty if they did themselves despite wanting to do them. Prohibition, drug wars, same sex marriage, and obscenity laws are all examples of this. I am an easy going person, and try to be accepting of other view points.
 
I don't personally have a problem with any kind of sex work, I think some people do as it's still socially unacceptable to discuss. You can start up a conversation with anyone in the street about office work, if you do that with sex I'm sure most people would run a mile!
 
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I thought this article had some interesting things to say:
http://www.alternet.org/story/14832...ed_women_of_their_time?onswipe_redirect=never

A few points that stuck out:
A U.S. Department of Labor study in 1916 found that in the major legitimate occupations for women -- department store clerking and light manufacturing -- the average weekly wage was $6.67, which at the time represented a subsistence standard of living. In such industries, jobs were few, and due to the ban on women's labor in most of the economy, the number of available workers in the industries that allowed women was great. This oversupply of labor pushed wages down to the minimum. By contrast, women who chose prostitution enjoyed a highly favorable market for their labor. Demand was enormous and constant, especially in the West, and the pool of available labor was kept relatively small by the great number of women who internalized or feared the stigma attached to prostitution. According to historian Ruth Rosen, who pioneered the social history of prostitution in the United States, "The average brothel inmate or streetwalker" -- the lowest positions in the trade -- "received from one to five dollars a 'trick,' earning in one evening what other working women made in a week." Prostitutes in a 1916 study reported earnings between $30 to $50 per week, at a time when skilled male trade union members averaged roughly $20 per week.

Decades before American employers offered health insurance to their workers, madams across the West provided their employees with free health care. While women were told that they could not and should not protect themselves from violence, and wives had no legal recourse against being raped by their husbands, police officers were employed by madams to protect the women who worked for them, and many madams owned and knew how to use guns.

It's a good read.

Additionally, I feel like a lot of the stigma has to do with... *dramatic pause* misogyny, classism, and patriarchy? To normalize sex work would be to allow social mobility to marginalized groups, which isn't something that comes easily. "Power concedes nothing without a demand", right? Note- it's not just women who are hurt by the stigma associated with sex work. Many LGBT folks engage in sex work, which can put them at risk of arrest and higher rates of incarceration. (orgs like the Sylvia Rivera Law Project do great work around this)

I'm sure others have their own thoughts, so I'll cut this short. Will be interesting to hear what you all think!
 
Why do you think sex work is frowned upon? Sometimes I feel like people enjoy feeling like they are better than someone else because they "don't have to stoop to that level to make money". Other times I feel like they think we're damaged mentally because "how else could we possibly enjoy be objectified & used like that". Long story short, sex work is frowned down upon because it always has been in our culture. Women are only allowed to be whores when the men they are with need them to be. And of course, that's some bullllllshit. I'm gonna be a whore when I want, love it AND make money off it.

Do you agree with prostitutes/escorts? Agree with? I don't see anything wrong with their line of work. I wish it was legalized in the U.S. so girls getting into that could be safer about it & have the people who are supposed to protect every citizen on their side if something, gods forbid, goes awry.

Do you have any negative feelings towards any form of sex work? Of so, why? Sugar babies. Only because they confuse me. And the name is creepy.
 
in your blanket questioning of acceptance of the sex trade, the one thing I notice left out is not mentioning anything about societal morality. Morality world wide shifts and changes by religion, culture, as well as location. Ex: Netherlands, Vs Europe Vs Arab nations Vs Asian cultures Vs USA, etc etc.
 
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Stigmatizing and/or outlawing sex work is a way for Patriarchal and homophobic societies to keep the flock on the beaten path. It has nothing to do with morality, and the people who judge are doing so based on baseless information fed to them throughout their lives. Sex work is the 1 occupation in which women will always make more money than men. Were prostitution legal and regulated, there wouldn't be much money to had in pimping or sex trafficking. We wouldn't want women to be in charge of an industry that gives them so much earning potential, so little overhead and no need of help from men (as anything other than consumers :lol: ).
 
To quote George Carlin: selling is legal, fucking is legal... why isnt selling fucking legal?

All of the sex industry is oppressed to some degree . That sucks. Regulations to keep the workers and customers safe? Awesome. any time something that is considered a vice is made illegal not only does it make criminals out of otherwise law abiding citizens, but it encourages criminals to take up the business, which makes the whole shebang more likely to be dangerous. Then you have an enterprise which feeds funds into the hands of individuals that are by nature anti social. Now they have the cash instead of the public coffers via taxes. That's my biggest argument for the legalization and control of a lot of the vice based crimes. prostitution, most drugs and things like gambling (which is getting legal ore places lately) all do better when they're legal and regulated.

now the rest of it? i believe that can be summed up in one word: religion. basically the idea that sex work is wrong or unethical is a religious one. yeah there's more to it than that if you look at it in detail, but big picture wise it comes down to what some other folk have said. a bunch of men want to control the vaginas. i mean you know how women are.. you let em have any control over the punanny and they just beat the hell out of the world. the idea that selling sex or images of women or the other related services and goods being "wrong" is more or less just the church's way of keepin' the pimp hand strong. and i'm allll for that... ho's best be havin' my money. you can sort of picture the pope taking his tithe from his world full of women, his stable, and keepin' em in line with a wire hanger across the ass like a bad 70s film.
disclaimer: i use the pope there just because hes the single most recognizable head of a church... nothin against catholics in particular.

me have anything against the sex workers? hell no, i wish they would unionize!get organized, do some lobbying and change some of the backwards ignorant bullshit. never mind... you cant change the stupidity of large numbers of people who are so convinced they are right they believe that they are the special precious children of the universe. but heck, im a known asshole on this subject.
 
Because a lot of women believe strongly that sex should be personal, always with emotions and feelings. Let's face it, men have always been dicks about a lot of things, and men think with their dicks. I swear half of working in the sex industry is going at some point "fuck it, it's going to go on and be like this anyway, I might as well make some money off it"

I don't judge prostitutes, good on them, but I do judge men who go to them.

Camming is different. I thought this before I even considered working on cam. Years ago I used to not understand why prostitutes were judged so much more than porn stars, at least a call girl has the sense not to record it. Oh the irony of what I ended up doing!

There are also different reasons men turn to sex workers. My flatmate, who I love to pieces admitted that he goes to prostitutes, when he was with his long term girlfriend he'd go to brothels etc. That is the kind of thing I hate, the doing it just because it's there and you can. But in his head he sees that as ok. Someone who's such a nice guy in so many ways, yet he see's "sluts" as "sluts" and is willing to take advantage of that. It weirds me out that he can think they're skanks yet is still willing to put his dick in them for money. So backwards!!
This I guess is the fear in many women. That so many men think this is ok, and that women like camgirls, prostitutes and porn stars are encouraging it.
A lot of men I meet who come to cam girls do it out of situation and loneliness, wanting someone to talk to and have a sexual experience with, not as predators (although I do get a few).

I'm not really that bothered by any of it, I mean obviously! But I do often think the sex industry does some really bad things, not the workers, but the people who enjoy its benefits, it warps many men/boys idea's of what women should be like.

There are "lads" magazines that I absolutely hate like Nuts, and a few others, where you can actually be fairly young to buy them, or dads make no effort to hide them because they're not officially porn. But they'll have pictures of absolutely stunning women, who say things that pretty much no woman would ever say.
I'm 21 and I grew up in an age when porn was readily available, and we all watch films like american pie at the age of 10. I don't know if it's a more recent thing, but the way boys would talk to me was worse than the worst basic. I get actually get more respect on cam than I have ever had from a man/boy since I turned 12 and my breasts grew dramatically.
Also everyone I know who reads those magazines is butt ugly and talks to/treats woman atrociously, and expect that a woman should be completely perfect like the magazine girls. Again though, I don't judge the models, just the publishers!

If you're annoyed about women frowning, well, if they're calling you a slut etc/judging you for it then they're just picking things to judge, if it weren't that it'd be something else. It's just a very easy thing for someone to hate on.
If you're saying women in general should be more excepting, then why should they? Let's face it, to those whose husbands/boyfriends go to us, and those boyfriends who say their breasts aren't big enough, complain that they don't do this and that position they saw in porn etc, technically they can see it as we're the mistresses, we're a threat. They haven't seen it from our side, have been brought up in a way it hasn't interested them/been accessible to them, what we do shocks them. As it in fact should. There is a reason people don't tend to walk around naked besides preserving heat.

If you're annoyed about men frowning, then yes I totally and completely agree with you! I cannot stand those men who go to sex workers/watch porn then act as though it's the most evil, sinful, disgusting thing on the planet! Or even in fact judge us for doing it when they enjoy/possibly pay for the benefits! If they think they're fantasies are that disgusting then they should keep it to themselves!
 
PlayboyMegan said:
Jupiter551 said:
PlayboyMegan said:
I think religion has a lot to do with it.
yeah maybe, or just 'society'. Women's sexuality is inextricably bound up with fertility, reproduction, women's gender roles etc...none of this is likely to tolerate sex work.
And that all goes back to religion.
Part of it does, but it also goes back to women's reproduction capabilities being 'sacred' - fertility idols and such, and also patriarchal status quo. I think religion tended to borrow from those sources rather than the other way around.
 
Isabella_deL said:
Because a lot of women believe strongly that sex should be personal, always with emotions and feelings. Let's face it, men have always been dicks about a lot of things, and men think with their dicks. I swear half of working in the sex industry is going at some point "fuck it, it's going to go on and be like this anyway, I might as well make some money off it"

Just a note, males of all species think with their dicks, not just humans. There is a genetic imprint in the male biology that wants to spread his seed to as many offspring as possible. In humans, though, it has evolved from just spreading the male's genetic code into offspring into just fuck as much as possible. Many men who sleep with as many women as they can don't actually want kids, especially in this day and age of child support, palimony, etc. They just have the urge to have sex. The base instinct is there, for spreading their seed, but with contraceptives readily available, it has moved beyond that into just the actual pleasurable act of having sex. Our intelligence as a species has made the baser instinct not as important.

Isabella_deL said:
I don't judge prostitutes, good on them, but I do judge men who go to them.

You really shouldn't. It's a bit hypocritical.

But, there's also another reason you shouldn't. And it's not just in humans, but all of nature. It's that no matter how much 'power' the males of any species hold, it's the females of the species that control if a male has sex.

Look at nature. It's not the females that are brightly colored, sing, prune, fight with each other and parade themselves to find males. It's the males that are like this. The females have the control over which males they will mate with. They decide if the males will ever have sex.

And it happens in humans, too. No matter how much it is thought that males have a lot of sexual control, it's the females that control it all. Women have the vaginas, and they control who gets in it (not counting things like rape, I'm just talking general society).

Even in humans, we have alpha, beta and omega males. The alpha males seem to have no problem finding sex whenever they want it-- in general, women are more willing to sleep with an alpha male. Beta males have to seriously work to get sex-- in general, women will not really see the beta male as someone they want to have sex with. And omega males tend to resort to paying for sex or forcibly taking it-- in general, omega males are so unattractive to females that they can't get sex the normal ways.

Now, an alpha male human doesn't need to be the best looking male. But he has to be the most confident, and eschew something that attracts women to him. As an example, I have a friend who is definitely an alpha male, but he is far from attractive. He's overweight, has a fairly unkempt beard and massively long and bushy eyebrows, is going bald, dresses like a slob etc. But goddamn if he can't somehow find a way to get a woman to go home with him without much effort at all. But, alpha males don't always find the sex they want. In fact, their overt sexual advances often backfire on them unless they are hitting on girls who are already horny or who are just looking to get laid, themselves. However, since they are intrinsically more desirable when women are looking for sex, they can often find someone to have sex with... even if it isn't their first choice.

Beta males need something else that will get a woman to go for him. Money, a stable career, perhaps an alpha male who talks them up, etc. But if the beta male has to work at getting it in some way. I'm more of a beta male. No matter how much girls tell me I'm actually attractive, etc., it takes me 100x or more effort to get sex than my alpha male friends. So much so that while alpha males are hitting hard times if they go a week or two without sex... well, let's just say a week or two without sex is nothing compared to my dry spells. One of the problems is that beta males fall into the 'friend zone' very fast.

And I'm sure each and every model on here has plenty of male friends who fell into that friend zone almost immediately. You all think they're great guys, but wonder why they never have girlfriends. You think women would fall over themselves to have such a good guy in their lives... but what you don't realize is that these males fall into the friend zone of pretty much every girl they meet. All the girls love them... but none of them want to love them. The girls, in general, are going for the alpha males, instead.

But, every now and then, those beta males get lucky and randomly hook up with some (sometimes really hot) girl at a bar/club, with seemingly little to no effort. Everyone's happy for them. And then everyone wonders where that girl is in a few days. Basically, she was just looking to get some action herself, and hooked up with a beta male because she knew it would be easier than competing for the alpha males in the bar/club.

Then there's the omega males. Males with little to no social skills to speak of. They ostracize themselves from society in different ways. In a crowded area, they seem to be alone. These males have very little chance of ever finding sex in the traditional ways, no matter how attractive they may be, physically. For these males, paying for sex seems like the only way they can get it without becoming rapists. A lot of people would associate omega males as your typical nerd type, big glasses, really fat or really skinny, etc. But not all omega males are like this. Just for some reason, they don't gel with society at large-- even if they want to.

Sure, you get the same thing in females. Your alpha, beta and omega females. We all know the alpha females, those gorgeous women the other girls want to look like. Your beta females, the more homely but average girls. And your omega girls, the ones society says are unattractive, or are so socially awkward that they just don't fit in, even if they are what society would consider attractive-- and they also can be what would otherwise normally be alpha or beta females.

But, there's a difference. Even omega females can get sex easier than beta males or omega males. There's always some male, alpha, beta or omega looking for sex, and this means that even omega females can get sex.

Of course, we all know how society perceives the alpha female. She's super hot, but seems bitchy to men. This is mostly because she is hit on non stop by everything with a penis. Every guy wants to get between her legs, and they let her know it. As a result, she seems very picky about who she sleeps with-- and sometimes complains that it's been forever since she had sex if she isn't in a relationship. Though, in truth, she is picky, because she knows she has the pick of any guy she wants. She's the desirable one. If she walked into a bar and plainly stated she wanted someone to fuck for that night, there would be guys killing each other to be the one. I often joke if she just walked outside her home and screamed "I want to fuck!" guys would materialize out of the sidewalk to be that guy. Even alpha males have a hard time sleeping with her, even though she tends to gravitate towards them. But, again, she can pick and choose if she so wants.

Your beta female is more average. The normal girl next door type. She's often friendlier towards men, but can get supremely annoyed with alpha males' overt sexual advances very quickly. Yet, she also gravitates to the alpha males when she is looking for sex. She will 'settle' for beta males if she can't have an alpha male, though. She's still choosy about who she sleeps with, but not as choosy as an alpha female. If she's in an area with alpha females, she may think of herself as too plain to try for alpha males, though the alpha males will still hit on her-- thinking she is easier than the alpha females. She often has a lot of beta guy friends who don't overtly hit on her, but secretly want to sleep with her. But, when she is on the prowl for sex, she also doesn't have a hard time finding it.

The omega female... they're harder to pin down. They often are the jealous friends who get pissed if one of their friends is getting hit on (or more) than they are while out. They often are the ones who cockblock their friends if they aren't getting attention from other men or the friend who is flirting or hooking up with someone. They may be what most consider unattractive, they may not. In fact, even alpha and beta females can turn into omega females at the appropriate time. It's more of an attitude over anything else. An attitude that comes and goes. Like omega males, some are socially awkward, though. They have many of the same issues as omega males, in that case. But, the difference between them and omega males is they can still find sex if they want it, even, sometimes, from alpha males. There's always some guy who just wants to get laid, and they know it. They may not find the sex with their first choice, but they can still find it when they want it.

We've all seen how it works.

Let's say a group of guys goes out. A few alpha males and a few beta males. Generally, the cokcblocking happens between alpha males. The beta males tend to not cockblock each other, though they may find a way to slyly cockblock an alpha male if the opportunity shows itself. But, if the beta males find themselves in competition for the same girl, there will be cockblocking between them. But, alpha males will sometimes help out a beta male in some way, if just to try and get the beta male laid. But, again, if the alpha male has his sights set on the same female as a beta male, he will cockblock the beta male, mercilessly.

Contrast that with a group of females. Let's say an alpha female or two and some beta females. One of the females, it doesn't matter which type, starts getting and reciprocating the attention of an alpha or beta male. In almost no time, the rest of the group turns into omega females if they aren't getting similar attention (even if they have no plans on reciprocating the attention). They'll try and coerce the girl getting the attention away, say they should leave, etc. And it gets more apparent if the one getting and reciprocating the attention starts making out with the male. Even to the point where they sometimes physically pull the one girl away with them.

Hell, I literally have had an experience where a girl out with her friends decided to make out with me, and her friends frankly told one of my friends that they were going to have to step in and cockblock. And the girl who was basically raping my face wasn't even the most attractive one in the group. :angry4: But the whole rest of the group started saying "we're going" and "let's get out of here" and then finally just grabbed her and pulled her out of the establishment.

And this is not a rare occurrence to witness.

This is where the 'wingman' approach has come in. Where if one guy starts noticing the other girls in a group trying to get the girl he is making headway with to get her away from him, he pulls in his friends to at least give the other girls attention. Otherwise he risks her friends cockblocking him out of the picture.

But, this is also one of the reasons when a girl is actively looking to have sex, she will go out alone. She knows she has a better chance of actually getting some action if she isn't out with a group of friends.

By the same token, many beta males will often have better luck if they go out alone. Then they only have to worry about cockblocking from strangers, over people they know.

Isabella_deL said:
Camming is different.

Camming is different, yes. It's also different for the guys. Even beta males can seem to be alpha males in an online environment. Anonymity helps, here. A guy who might normally be shy with women can be far more proactive in an online chatroom. However, omega males still tend to be omega males in online environments. They're the ones who say the most fucked up shit to models thinking it will get them any sort of good attention.

Isabella_deL said:
There are also different reasons men turn to sex workers.

Yes. And different reasons men turn to prostitutes over strippers or camgirls. In terms of camgirls, it's more of a social interaction for some men. Especially if the camgirls seem to like them hanging around. But, it's still far away and not up close and personal. Strippers get the more in your face part going, but it is most often look but don't touch unless you want a bouncer throwing you on your ass. Then there's the prostitutes, where the guy just wants to get laid, and they provide that service.

Isabella_deL said:
My flatmate, who I love to pieces admitted that he goes to prostitutes, when he was with his long term girlfriend he'd go to brothels etc. That is the kind of thing I hate, the doing it just because it's there and you can.

But, truthfully, it's the same with camgirls. Why do guys initially go to cam sites? Because they can, and they're there. And, they can do so from the security of their own homes.

Isabella_deL said:
A lot of men I meet who come to cam girls do it out of situation and loneliness, wanting someone to talk to and have a sexual experience with, not as predators (although I do get a few).

Yes, loneliness can be a factor, or wanting someone to talk to. But the biggest factor of all? Nakend women. Period. It may become something different, over time, but the initial idea when any guy looks at a camgirl is "I want to know what she looks like naked."

It might be different if a guy comes into a model's room after conversing with her here, on the ACF, first. But, for a fresh person coming onto a site like MFC, it's all about the bewbs and va jay jay. Nothing more, nothing less. I've visited your room after talking to you here, and I wasn't all like "let's get Isabella nakie!" Same with me going into JJ's or Amber's rooms. There was already more of a friendliness made because of here. It doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy said nudity if I saw it, but it wasn't the main reason to go into your rooms. Now, if I spot a pic of a girl on the homepage and decide to check her out? you can bet, 9 times out of 10, it's to see what she looks like naked. I never claimed not to be a perv, after all. :p
 
PlayboyMegan said:
I think religion has a lot to do with it.

And the fairly puritanical foundations upon which the US was founded. Compare the US to Europe... in the US, violence is much more appropriate on TV than sex. It's the complete opposite in mainland Europe.

Too many people associate morality with religion. And too many people associate religion with what is right in the morals of society. Especially those brought up under one of the many Christian denominations. I mean, the whole gay marriage/marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman issue wasn't brought up by some secular person, after all. It was brought up by someone whose religion specifically teaches them that homosexuality is inherently evil/a mortal sin and needs to not be accepted in any way.
 
Not everyone is educated about sex and not everyone has an open mind. If it wasn't for sex we wouldn't be here in this forum discussing this. I think it's a combination of culture and religion that puts a lot more pressure on women to behave according to the 'moral' code and be 'pure' but if a dude is promiscuous or a sex worker he is judged less or even considered a 'champ'.

In some ways though women sex workers wouldn't be making the money they are making today if sex was more accepted. More women would join the sex force and the industry would be over-saturated. If you think about it man sex workers don't make as much because most dudes would provide sex for free, it might become like that for women if the world accepts sex as a natural thing.

Ahh our society and our double standards.....
 
UncleThursday said:
Isabella_deL said:
Because a lot of women believe strongly that sex should be personal, always with emotions and feelings. Let's face it, men have always been dicks about a lot of things, and men think with their dicks. I swear half of working in the sex industry is going at some point "fuck it, it's going to go on and be like this anyway, I might as well make some money off it"

Just a note, males of all species think with their dicks, not just humans. There is a genetic imprint in the male biology that wants to spread his seed to as many offspring as possible. In humans, though, it has evolved from just spreading the male's genetic code into offspring into just fuck as much as possible. Many men who sleep with as many women as they can don't actually want kids, especially in this day and age of child support, palimony, etc. They just have the urge to have sex. The base instinct is there, for spreading their seed, but with contraceptives readily available, it has moved beyond that into just the actual pleasurable act of having sex. Our intelligence as a species has made the baser instinct not as important.

Even in humans, we have alpha, beta and omega males. The alpha males seem to have no problem finding sex whenever they want it-- in general, women are more willing to sleep with an alpha male. Beta males have to seriously work to get sex-- in general, women will not really see the beta male as someone they want to have sex with. And omega males tend to resort to paying for sex or forcibly taking it-- in general, omega males are so unattractive to females that they can't get sex the normal ways.

Now, an alpha male human doesn't need to be the best looking male. But he has to be the most confident, and eschew something that attracts women to him. As an example, I have a friend who is definitely an alpha male, but he is far from attractive. He's overweight, has a fairly unkempt beard and massively long and bushy eyebrows, is going bald, dresses like a slob etc. But goddamn if he can't somehow find a way to get a woman to go home with him without much effort at all. But, alpha males don't always find the sex they want. In fact, their overt sexual advances often backfire on them unless they are hitting on girls who are already horny or who are just looking to get laid, themselves. However, since they are intrinsically more desirable when women are looking for sex, they can often find someone to have sex with... even if it isn't their first choice.

Beta males need something else that will get a woman to go for him. Money, a stable career, perhaps an alpha male who talks them up, etc. But if the beta male has to work at getting it in some way. I'm more of a beta male. No matter how much girls tell me I'm actually attractive, etc., it takes me 100x or more effort to get sex than my alpha male friends. So much so that while alpha males are hitting hard times if they go a week or two without sex... well, let's just say a week or two without sex is nothing compared to my dry spells. One of the problems is that beta males fall into the 'friend zone' very fast.

Then there's the omega males. Males with little to no social skills to speak of. They ostracize themselves from society in different ways. In a crowded area, they seem to be alone. These males have very little chance of ever finding sex in the traditional ways, no matter how attractive they may be, physically. For these males, paying for sex seems like the only way they can get it without becoming rapists. A lot of people would associate omega males as your typical nerd type, big glasses, really fat or really skinny, etc. But not all omega males are like this. Just for some reason, they don't gel with society at large-- even if they want to.

But, there's a difference. Even omega females can get sex easier than beta males or omega males. There's always some male, alpha, beta or omega looking for sex, and this means that even omega females can get sex.

Your beta female is more average. The normal girl next door type. She's often friendlier towards men, but can get supremely annoyed with alpha males' overt sexual advances very quickly. Yet, she also gravitates to the alpha males when she is looking for sex. She will 'settle' for beta males if she can't have an alpha male, though.

Let's say a group of guys goes out. A few alpha males and a few beta males. Generally, the cokcblocking happens between alpha males. The beta males tend to not cockblock each other, though they may find a way to slyly cockblock an alpha male if the opportunity shows itself. But, if the beta males find themselves in competition for the same girl, there will be cockblocking between them. But, alpha males will sometimes help out a beta male in some way, if just to try and get the beta male laid. But, again, if the alpha male has his sights set on the same female as a beta male, he will cockblock the beta male, mercilessly.

Contrast that with a group of females. Let's say an alpha female or two and some beta females. One of the females, it doesn't matter which type, starts getting and reciprocating the attention of an alpha or beta male. In almost no time, the rest of the group turns into omega females if they aren't getting similar attention (even if they have no plans on reciprocating the attention). They'll try and coerce the girl getting the attention away, say they should leave, etc. And it gets more apparent if the one getting and reciprocating the attention starts making out with the male. Even to the point where they sometimes physically pull the one girl away with them.

Hell, I literally have had an experience where a girl out with her friends decided to make out with me, and her friends frankly told one of my friends that they were going to have to step in and cockblock. And the girl who was basically raping my face wasn't even the most attractive one in the group. :angry4: But the whole rest of the group started saying "we're going" and "let's get out of here" and then finally just grabbed her and pulled her out of the establishment.

By the same token, many beta males will often have better luck if they go out alone. Then they only have to worry about cockblocking from strangers, over people they know.

Isabella_deL said:
Camming is different.

Camming is different, yes. It's also different for the guys. Even beta males can seem to be alpha males in an online environment. Anonymity helps, here. A guy who might normally be shy with women can be far more proactive in an online chatroom. However, omega males still tend to be omega males in online environments. They're the ones who say the most fucked up shit to models thinking it will get them any sort of good attention.

Woah... Ok, it seems like there's a lot of generalization going on here, little of which has anything to do with sex work. At the risk of veering off topic, I just wanted to point folks to an excellent article I saw this week: http://thequietus.com/articles/10133-ariel-pink-beta-male-misogyny I thought this was particularly insightful:
However, one success of Bain and Armstrong's writing has gone largely unacknowledged, namely its identification and confrontation of a brainiac misogyny which has little in common with unabashed chauvinism and UniLAD-style 'casual rape banter'. While David Mitchell's bookish, socially-squeamish Mark Corrigan has few surface similarities with modern-day underground musicians, the series offers a perspective on a skewed attitude to gender that has subtly become entrenched in subcultures which often congratulate themselves for their hostility to the lumpen sexism of the mainstream.

Much of the humour (and the tragedy) in Peep Show stems from Mark's unshakable confidence in his own victimhood: he fails repeatedly to take responsibility for what befalls him, reasoning instead that the world has it in for men who eschew football and clubbing for comfortable sweaters, canal boating and nights on the sofa with Das Boot. This works itself up into an odd superiority complex which pivots on a paradox by which society's stereotypical alpha males are simultaneously resented because of their apparent desirability and (smugly) pitied for their supposed shallowness. In Bain and Armstrong's representation of the beta male worldview, the terms and conditions of class conflict are transposed onto the male civil war in which the Corrigans are the – hopeless – proles.

Being in a relationship isn't, to him, its own reward, but an indication of a drastic redistribution of sexual capital which avenges him on those – especially Jeff, his alpha arch-enemy – he believes have 'oppressed' him. Women are treated as nothing more than symbols of advantage in a battle men fight between themselves

Anyways...

I would partially agree w/ Jupiter's assessment of attaching stigma to those they can't be possessive of. I guess my only difference would be I'd chalk that up to male privilege, and the feeling of entitlement men have towards women's bodies. When this is violated/denied, which sort of happens by default in sex work, then out come the rationalizations for why sex work is wrong, bad, etc from guys.

Heh, I also realized in my last post I didn't directly address the OP questions, so...

1) Actually, I kinda addressed this.
2) I support decriminalization as a next step for prostitution.
3) Hmm.... Yes, but only in the sense that I wish there was more organizing for better conditions. That said, I have the same negative feelings about most industries.
 
I'm new, but I feel compelled to chime in on this.

The idea of possessing a woman's sexuality has its roots in modern (as in, not-prehistoric) ideas of property and inheritance. Our ancestors were hunter-gatherers, trucking around in groups that were at their largest 150-200 people and eating together what they could find or kill. No or very little concept of property ownership had yet developed, and children were raised in common by the group.

When we adopted agriculture, we needed land and other individually-held property in order to make a go of it. Property became something that an individual built over his or her lifetime, and modern men wanted to make certain it would be their own children--not someone else's--that would inherit what they'd worked for. Suddenly, it becomes very necessary to control female sexuality and to justify that control through a number of means. Religion and social shame are two great examples of this.

Contemporary slut-shaming is a manifestation of this modern and relatively recent phenomenon. And, since women are more than able now to own their own property, choose their own partners, and make their own goddamned decisions, it's completely antiquated and irrelevant. But it persists.
 
I don't have much to add here that won't be incredibly long-winded, but I do want to add that it takes a unique confidence and a brave sexuality to push back against cultural condemnation. I admire those qualities in women. These are women I want to know.

And it takes the same qualities to reject the conditioned fear-reflex that seems to be triggered by unrestrained sexuality. And these are men I want to know.

The rest can keep their distance.
 
To think less of men who visit prostitutes than you do of the prostitutes is very strange and I'd venture to say ... i can't think of the word! Dammit. But one can't be "better" than the other... surely? To try and justify it is surprising. I doubt the prostitute would say she is better than her client - though I'd imagine the clients will always believe they're better than the prostitute. Reality is that they're both human and therefore "equal".

It's a service industry, but I doubt it'll receive anything like the level of acceptance as the food industry being mentioned in the first post. When it's acceptable and normal to observe people receiving sex acts anywhere in a public place (and everywhere in a public place) then maybe it'll be a comparison worth making. Until then, it was almost a strawman fallacy.

My question would be whether anyone here would want their young children to see people having sex, or themselves watch most people having sex either - either in public spaces or behind windows on the high street. I would imagine most of you would say it should be behind closed doors, curtained off, out of public sight... away from everyone's prying eyes.

Congratulations, you have just exhibited the behaviour which makes things taboo in polite society. You've just put the industry you claim has nothing to be ashamed of right back into that very same "taboo" area, where looks of scorn and disdain exist, with those thoughts. Everyone enjoys sex, but when we see others doing it in public it's obscene - which adds back the taboo part.

So to change a perspective about something you need to change societies views. If everyone fucked in public, I doubt we'd notice or care if people were paying for it or not. Until then, I think it's always going to be "taboo", and therefore those looks of pity and scorn will exist.

Just my thoughts on it ;)
 
UncleThursday, thank you for writing such a long winded response.

The whole thing with women going for alpha males etc is only partially true. That male friend you have, that women are going for, there will be a mixture of reasons.
One, physically unattractive men are unsuspecting, many women sometimes like getting with an egotistical yet physically unattractive man because we know we can and it makes us feel good about ourselves, plus we feel the guy won't hurt us because he seems so below us. That guy and all his friends will think he's an alpha, they could not be more wrong. Those guys are usually just good enough at manipulating women into wanting them. There's also the popularity thing, and wanting to fit in, so we go for people who everyone else will like, because we don't want to be ashamed of who we're with.

The attractive men who become shy, the reason for this is because a lot of women are afraid of being hurt, so they don't openly come onto them, and the guy doesn't pick up on the hints therefore loses confidence and ends up rarely getting laid. Instead the girl will get with his less good looking friend.

I do judge men who use prostitutes, one of the reasons is that they can actually fuck someone who doesn't want to sleep with them. If you weren't paying them, the act would be rape. It's like paying for someone to hang out with you. A lot of people have different feelings on this and think it's ok. I don't. Camming is different because we're doing our thing, we're not doing anything we don't want to do (most of us at least), if I had decided to go into prostitution I could have acted, but I wouldn't have been enjoying it. That someone can enjoy doing something to someone who see's it as a chore/finds no true enjoyment from it is reason enough for me to judge. What disgusts me is that there are enough men who don't care. The girl might as well be a very good sex doll. That is how I feel and don't tell me not to judge because you have an excuse or a reason for it. I know the reasoning. I can see it from their point of view, and I still see it as wrong.

I also think people don't fit into your categories. All my least attractive friends are in the happiest relationships, yet many men steer clear of me, they want to fuck me, but few want anything else, partially because they fear getting hurt. Looks are extremely important, but it's not necessarily because of being good looking. If your theory worked then I would be beating off men with a stick and my less attractive/quieter friends would be sad and lonely their entire lives.
 
I guess one reason for the problem with sex work is that some women want to protect a monopoly on sex.
In Ireland for example they try at the moment to make "buying sex" illegal and punish the punter. the basic assumption is that women are always victims forced to sell sex and the men are the evil punters fuelling this exploitation...

In Germany where prostitution is legal I spoke with some girls and the reasoning is mostly why should I work in a low payed job where I earn a little in a week when I can make the same money in a day...

Back to my original point if a man spents money on sex that reduces the money he has avaible to spent on his wife or girlfriend, so her interest is to make it as hard as possible that money gets spent on sex outside the relation. It is of course not hurting that most politicians are married and if they are pro sex work the can forget sex at home for sure, the tap will be turned off quickly....

;)
 
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Isabella_deL said:
I don't judge prostitutes, good on them, but I do judge men who go to them.

Woah, woah, woah, hold the fucking phone, yo :)

This is a huuuuuuuge double standard. Firstly, it's not just men who go to prostitutes, but that's besides the point - this is like saying you hate people who eat fast food, but hey, good on McDonalds, yeah? It makes no sense.
If you judge somebody for doing something, then you implicitly acknowledge that you think there's something inherently wrong with what it is they're doing (else you'd have no reason to judge them). So if you think that there's something wrong with the act itself, how can you be okay with one party being involved in said act, but not the other?

I do judge men who use prostitutes, one of the reasons is that they can actually fuck someone who doesn't want to sleep with them. If you weren't paying them, the act would be rape. It's like paying for someone to hang out with you. A lot of people have different feelings on this and think it's ok. I don't. Camming is different because we're doing our thing, we're not doing anything we don't want to do (most of us at least), if I had decided to go into prostitution I could have acted, but I wouldn't have been enjoying it. That someone can enjoy doing something to someone who see's it as a chore/finds no true enjoyment from it is reason enough for me to judge. What disgusts me is that there are enough men who don't care. The girl might as well be a very good sex doll. That is how I feel and don't tell me not to judge because you have an excuse or a reason for it. I know the reasoning. I can see it from their point of view, and I still see it as wrong.

If we're talking about women who have been trafficked and forced into work as a prostitute, then I agree completely. But if we're talking about women for whom prostitution is a chosen career, then I couldn't disagree more. A prostitute who has chosen to make her living by having sex with strangers for money clearly has no problem with having sex with strangers, else she wouldn't have chosen to be a prostitute. And in that sense, camming and prostitution are really no different. Both professions call for a woman (generally) to sell sexual acts/content (be it sex itself, pornographic videos, shows, pic sets, whatever) to (relative) strangers - but in both instances the girl is doing only what she feels comfortable doing :twocents-02cents:
 
I don't think you can assume someone is "comfortable" or "enjoying" their work just because they're willing to do it. Seriously, I don't think most factory workers really love what they're doing. We all do what we have to do to survive, those of us who are lucky enough to love our work are probably in the minority.

And even if you can somehow show evidence that prostitutes enjoy their work, that doesn't necessarily disprove Isabella's contention. You may love working on an assembly line but still hate your manager, e.g. I doubt that many prostitutes have any deep feelings for their customers, perhaps even a bit of contempt.
 
mynameisbob84 said:
There's a distinction between enjoying something and being comfortable doing something, yo.
Agree. :D "Enjoy" is pretty definite. "Comfortable" can be a bit ambiguous. For instance, when in a job you hate, you might become "comfortable" with it--if only for mental health reasons, but when asked, you still hate it or at least hold it in low esteem.
 
It's super unfair to judge men who employ prostitutes and ludicrous to say they're all unattractive and want to be with women who don't want them. There are TONS of reasons why someone would choose a prostitute and some of those reasons wouldn't even need to be sexual. As women, it's easy to say that men don't need to pay for sex. Let's be realistic. Women rule sex. We can run into the street yell "Sex Boobies Sex!" and someone will come running. If we want male attention with or without sex, it's equally easy to attain. Men (even amazingly attractive men) don't have that option. So, if a man wants a woman's attention, companionship or sex on the fly paying for it is the quickest way to manage. We live in a lonely world sometimes. I wouldn't judge anyone for handing over cash to feel cared for and attended to for a few hours.

It's also kind of rude to assume women in sex work (other than camming? I'm confused by that.) do not enjoy the career they've chosen. Many ladies who do this are highly paid, get to meet new people, travel and see new places, have dates, get gifts, and are lavished with adoration. For the right sort of girl, it could be a pretty sweet gig. Either way, pitying her or judging the men that make her job possible is pretty condescending coming from a girl who does the same job without physical contact. :twocents-02cents:
 
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