Zeitgeist, (Peter Joseph's Zeitgeist film trilogy)

[camstory]

I first became aware of the philosophy of Peter Joseph after seeing, "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward" is the third installment in Peter Joseph's Zeitgeist film trilogy.

More recently I viewed, John Perkins "Confessions of an Economic Hitman", and did not know there was any connection.

Both these videos have reinforced the idea in me that there has to be some radical change in the way things are now being run in the U.S. and the world. Though neither offers a clear plan of how to do that, both leave no other possible alternative to a free and fair future.

I am moved enough by theses videos, and what I had already believed, that I am considering a course of active radical demonstration.

Thoughts?

 

[zippypinhead]

Having grown up in a region and among people who are given to believe this sort of stuff, and having had a long history of immersion within the world that produces this sort of material, I have to say that it's all pretty much hokum. I've seen Zeitgeist and its extended cuts and Moving Forward, and all the rambling, all the tenuous connections, all the circular logic, it all just makes me sad.

I'm not going to debate the merits of it; it's too much of an emotional issue for me to really dig into and internet argue over. I mostly came in to offer up another film to look at:

New World Order

It gives a pretty objective, even sympathetic, look into the minds of the types of people who produce this type of material, and frankly, I think it's tragic. It was a punch in the gut to watch, because these are the types of people I grew up around. I don't find these people to be heroic. I don't find their messages -- any of them -- to be remotely plausible. However, I understand and sympathize with what brought them to such a state. The world is a complicated and ugly place. If you spend enough time trying to make linear sense of it, it will drive you crazy. If you can get a hands on a copy the movie, I'd recommend giving it a watch.

That's all I'll say on the subject.

 

[Nordling]

Having grown up in a region and among people who are given to believe this sort of stuff, and having had a long history of immersion within the world that produces this sort of material, I have to say that it's all pretty much hokum. I've seen Zeitgeist and its extended cuts and Moving Forward, and all the rambling, all the tenuous connections, all the circular logic, it all just makes me sad.

I'm not going to debate the merits of it; it's too much of an emotional issue for me to really dig into and internet argue over. I mostly came in to offer up another film to look at:

New World Order

It gives a pretty objective, even sympathetic, look into the minds of the types of people who produce this type of material, and frankly, I think it's tragic. It was a punch in the gut to watch, because these are the types of people I grew up around. I don't find these people to be heroic. I don't find their messages -- any of them -- to be remotely plausible. However, I understand and sympathize with what brought them to such a state. The world is a complicated and ugly place. If you spend enough time trying to make linear sense of it, it will drive you crazy. If you can get a hands on a copy the movie, I'd recommend giving it a watch.

That's all I'll say on the subject.

I agree. I've only watched the original installment and my impression was of a propaganda piece bordering near D.W. Griffith's "Birth of a Nation." Similarly, Zeitgeist is well-made as propaganda, with a mixture of truth and fantasy...also with some antisemitism thrown in.

 

[LuckySmiles]

I have a friend who used to make me watch these all the time. (And it was usually very late and I was usually very drunk :lol: )

But I think I've seen moving forward the most recently. They all kind of blur together to me... for various reasons haha I've also seen quite a bit of stuff along the same lines so I get mixed up.

But at the very least they are quite thought provoking. The first time I saw the one on religion I was pretty intrigued, the pagan symbolism with zodiac and sun gods and things found in the major religions... they're definitely interesting. And a good way to open people's minds who have never considered the way the world works in a different light.

 

[JordanBlack]

I really liked "Confessions of an Economic Hitman", quite enlightening and appalling. The scary thing is that these guys that come out and speak about it, are most of times ostracized not only by politicians, corporate media, but also by the general population.

Zeitgeists movies question a lot of things from economics, politics to religion and I think the way they are made, makes anyone who dares to watch it question the society they live in and that's never a bad thing, is it? Surely after you watched them you feel that you've been mind fucked lol, especially the 3rd movie, the second part can be seen as brainwashing.

What they fail to address is how they wanna transform the present society into their "ideal". A society that has been power-hungry, money-hungry etc for centuries can't transform itself overnight, by the flip of a switch, into some kinda paradise. What you gonna do with all the bankers, corporations owners, oil magnates, kings & queens, Vatican :? folk, do they think they'll just let everyone develop a self-sustainable society that's not driven by printing money, or greed and they'll just share everything?! lol

Zeitgeist is controversial, probably that's why it became so popular...but hey so is FoxNews :lol:

:twocents-02cents:

 

[camstory]

I really liked "Confessions of an Economic Hitman", quite enlightening and appalling. The scary thing is that these guys that come out and speak about it, are most of times ostracized not only by politicians, corporate media, but also by the general population.

Zeitgeists movies question a lot of things from economics, politics to religion and I think the way they are made, makes anyone who dares to watch it question the society they live in and that's never a bad thing, is it? Surely after you watched them you feel that you've been mind fucked lol, especially the 3rd movie, the second part can be seen as brainwashing.

What they fail to address is how they wanna transform the present society into their "ideal". A society that has been power-hungry, money-hungry etc for centuries can't transform itself overnight, by the flip of a switch, into some kinda paradise. What you gonna do with all the bankers, corporations owners, oil magnates, kings & queens, Vatican :? folk, do they think they'll just let everyone develop a self-sustainable society that's not driven by printing money, or greed and they'll just share everything?! lol

Zeitgeist is controversial, probably that's why it became so popular...but hey so is FoxNews :lol:

:twocents-02cents:

Thank you Jo, and everyone else, for your input. I had particularity wanted to hear from you Jo, along with a few others. I had thought this might invoke some counter opinions, and the thought that the videos I had listed be only propaganda. I posted with the belief that there was a good deal of propaganda in the Zeitgeist films, but less convinced that the story that John Perkins "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" told, was un-true.

Both these videos fail to give any realistic or coherent step to get to some place that will lead us out of the current state of bullshit we are now stuck in, as Jo has pointed out.

I fear that the above videos will cause people to cast all radical teachings into the same left wing hag wash pile of ideas that should be dismissed, and there in dismiss the teachings of radicals such as Howard Zinn, and others who speak an unpopular truth.

I am not convinced that all the left wing beliefs and propaganda are worth giving much credit to, but I think we need to stop believing what is feed to us, if we ever hope to find the truth.

 

[Nordling]

Instead of Zeitgeist and the like, I suggest reading "The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism" by Naomi Klein.

 

[Jessi]

 

[JordanBlack]

Instead of Zeitgeist and the like, I suggest reading "The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism" by Naomi Klein.

:handgestures-salute: It's one of my favorites books and the documentary that was made after it is worth watching. How Milton Friedman & the Chicago boys fucked up a lot of countries (the Chile experiment)

Also Inside Job, that Jessi mentioned & Power Principle http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/power-principle/

 

[VenPerv2]

i think many documentaries today are branded under the catchall of "conspiracy", its an easy out to explain anything or any thinking against the norm, and that's kinda how most people want it, if you have a differing view on something that isn't exactly what media/government/society tells you then its a conspiracy in the favor of complacency.

Regardless of the message of documentaries like these isn't to turn your view or even to right wrongs that the writer or producer brings to light, its an engine into making people think, think and question things that perhaps they had that little voice in the back of their head saying hey you know this isn't quite right perhaps there is something more.

I love watching these types of shows because that's exactly what they make me do they make me question what is "normal" and you will find that there are a lot more people out there that think like you and the documentary medium is a great way of getting that across.

I maybe diverging from the zeitgeist topic slightly but i though id mention a few other site that has videos of presentations of people exactly like this, they question things and make you think and seek answers and i think when as a society we realize that there is more out there than what the popular media tells us i think we would be better off.

Royal Society for the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce http://www.thersa.org/events/rsaanimate

TED http://www.ted.com/

 

[Teagan]

As far as what the first steps to change would be i think a lot of us have already done it. Changing how we look at religions. And it not effecting if we choose to believe in a God or not. God is not religion. And the more i see open free thinking people the more i see a change in our society. Pot smoking and gay marriage anyone?
I know religion gives a lot of people a sense of purpose, peacefulness, and comfort, so i do not take issue with all religions. I take issue with those who feel they need ten commandments in order to be told how to live their life. Rape and incest isnt on them, so those are cool right? (Man they get mad when you say that to them.) Or when people murder someone by stoning and claiming their religion is the reason. It makes me sick.
I do think a lot of good comes out of it though too. Missionaries who help villages, charity to homeless and battered individuals, etc. But i think these things should be done regardless of your religion anyway.

As to the next step beyond that for change?? Getting rid of the federal reserve maybe? Though since it's been put out there that anyone who does is assassinated that may be big talk that will never happen.

 

[VenPerv2]

As to the next step beyond that for change?? Getting rid of the federal reserve maybe? Though since it's been put out there that anyone who does is assassinated that may be big talk that will never happen.

cant agree more, and all the people i say this to just roll their eyes

remembered another one i watched recently on money and war

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/all-wars ... kers-wars/

:thumbleft:

 

[Teagan]

As to the next step beyond that for change?? Getting rid of the federal reserve maybe? Though since it's been put out there that anyone who does is assassinated that may be big talk that will never happen.

cant agree more, and all the people i say this to just roll their eyes

remembered another one i watched recently on money and war

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/all-wars ... kers-wars/

:thumbleft:

Anyone who rolls their eyes needs to be told that the federal reserve is not a federal company. But a private bank. They do us no favors, and never have.

 

[MrRodry]

I recently watched a documentary that shocked me too. It’s a doc about the Lyme disease and the absurd debate around the existence of this disease. It shows some of the loop holes that doctors and insurance companies are using to deny the correct treatment to their patients and to end the career of those doctors that have found a way to deal with this disease.

 

[AwesomeKate]

Weird that this thread comes up now. I watched the Zeitgeist films, and found out about the Venus Project a couple years back. I am usually hesitant to bring it up in my daily life, as most people literally laugh in my face when I do. However, more and more people seem to be getting on board with at least the idea of moving 'off the grid'. I've noticed there's a lot more interest in living without money by my friends and family lately. A mixture of compounded debt, shaky careers, and a growing mistrust of 'the powers that be' have forced people to consider an alternative.
I tell my room on MFC all the time that my life plans in the next five years involve purchasing land, getting together like-minded people, and becoming completely self-sufficient as a group. I believe that to avoid the money trap you've either got to make so much money that it doesn't matter anymore, or create a life that does not need money to begin with. I can't believe how incredible camming has been in kick-starting my plan for self-sufficiency. I am in the mindset to save save save so I can get everything I need and start a commune soon. I'd love to work beside the Venus Project while doing so. Jacque's is the most comprehensible and compassionate global plan I've encountered so far. Almost all problems of suffering can be eliminated with the removal of money. I am totally supportive of the project, and hope to go visit Venus, FL soon.

 

[VenPerv2]

china might be forging leaps and bounds in this ^

http://www.mnn.com/your-home/organic-fa ... n-unveiled

great site for environmental news (i know its ab bit off topic but somehow related)

 

[TashaDutch]

i'm sorry i decided to delete what i wrote, cause it made me feel like i was attacking people or something, which was not my intention

all the money stuff, and the materialism just make me sad, that's it

 

[LuckySmiles]

I recently watched a documentary that shocked me too. It’s a doc about the Lyme disease and the absurd debate around the existence of this disease. It shows some of the loop holes that doctors and insurance companies are using to deny the correct treatment to their patients and to end the career of those doctors that have found a way to deal with this disease.

Holy Shit... My friend that made me watch all the zeitgeist's and everthing else, HAD Lyme Disease. And was undiagnosed for a very long time, pushed around different doctors and stuff...went through a shitstorm of problems...The whole reason he first found the movies and stuff is because it was when he was sick at home and unable to do much...

I'm going to have to watch this later and let him know...

It's not YOU is it? :lol: Did he make and ACF account without telling me... haha jk! thanks for sharing... unless you ARE him... then I'll call ya later

Ok I'm done being conspiracy creepy crazy.

 

[MrRodry]

YOU FOUND ME!

No, I'm not him. :lol: He found a Doctor to treat the disease?

 

[LuckySmiles]

No, I'm not him. :lol: He found a Doctor to treat the disease?

hahaha! too funny
yes eventually, but he told me the stories about how everyone acted like he was crazy, didn't believe him, it was a mental thing, hypochondriac etc.etc. same as the documentary.
I actually met him when he was coming off the treatment. He's fine now luckily with no major long term effects, didn't get to speak about it yet today but I'm fairly certain he had it for a few years before finally getting properly treated. And some major medical debts to go with it.

 

[camstory]

I recently watched a documentary that shocked me too. It’s a doc about the Lyme disease and the absurd debate around the existence of this disease. It shows some of the loop holes that doctors and insurance companies are using to deny the correct treatment to their patients and to end the career of those doctors that have found a way to deal with this disease.

I'm headed off to bed, but will watch this one before I go to sleep. I watched one last night that really shocked me quite a bit. Named "Gasland" It is available on Netflix and deals with the process of Hydraulic fracturing, a way of breaking the subterranean bedrock up and allowing the collection of natural gas. I had been hearing about this controversial process for years, and that the chemicals used were contaminating ground water, but never really paid a great deal of attention. The reason I never paid any attention was because I figured it could not be too bad because a process that pumped industrial chemicals into the ground had to be pretty well regulated. I mean it would be crazy if it wasn't, right? Well what I did not know and am sure most ppl don't know, is that the natural gas industry managed to get this process exempted from the clean water act, and the clean air act, basically all federal regulations. These exemptions were part of the 2005 energy bill put through by the Bush administration. Also, the companies involved in fracking don't have to disclose the exact chemicals being used, because they were granted the protection of laws of proprietary non-disclosure, also by the bush administration. :angry4:


The full documentary runs near 2 hours, but leaves little doubt that this is a great rape of the environment and the American ppl by the energy industry assisted by our own government. (More evidence that the ppl who run large corporations, are the ppl who control our government to a great extent.) The abridged version of the documentary can be found here as a PBS "NOW" segment. http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/613/index.html

 

[LuckySmiles]

No, I'm not him. :lol: He found a Doctor to treat the disease?

hahaha! too funny
yes eventually, but he told me the stories about how everyone acted like he was crazy, didn't believe him, it was a mental thing, hypochondriac etc.etc. same as the documentary.
I actually met him when he was coming off the treatment. He's fine now luckily with no major long term effects, didn't get to speak about it yet today but I'm fairly certain he had it for a few years before finally getting properly treated. And some major medical debts to go with it.

update! talked to him. The doctor who finally did it was totally under the table about it (never knew that part). They had to be sneaky to get the intravenous treatment done because of what goes on in that video-- with the insurance and the doctor's ignoring it etc. I just finished the youtube and it's so sad!

 

[LuckySmiles]

Well my friend that made me watch the zeitgeists just made me watch this... it's much shorter and cuter...
but the same general idea as found in some of them... and I don't know where to share it, but I liked it so... here...

 

[JerryBoBerry]

I'm headed off to bed, but will watch this one before I go to sleep. I watched one last night that really shocked me quite a bit. Named "Gasland" It is available on Netflix and deals with the process of Hydraulic fracturing, a way of breaking the subterranean bedrock up and allowing the collection of natural gas. I had been hearing about this controversial process for years, and that the chemicals used were contaminating ground water, but never really paid a great deal of attention. The reason I never paid any attention was because I figured it could not be too bad because a process that pumped industrial chemicals into the ground had to be pretty well regulated. I mean it would be crazy if it wasn't, right? Well what I did not know and am sure most ppl don't know, is that the natural gas industry managed to get this process exempted from the clean water act, and the clean air act, basically all federal regulations. These exemptions were part of the 2005 energy bill put through by the Bush administration. Also, the companies involved in fracking don't have to disclose the exact chemicals being used, because they were granted the protection of laws of proprietary non-disclosure, also by the bush administration. :angry4:

The full documentary runs near 2 hours, but leaves little doubt that this is a great rape of the environment and the American ppl by the energy industry assisted by our own government. (More evidence that the ppl who run large corporations, are the ppl who control our government to a great extent.) The abridged version of the documentary can be found here as a PBS "NOW" segment. http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/613/index.html

I hate that 'documentary.' So full of errors, and really right down bogus drama schlock. It would take too long at this late of hour to go into everything but I'll give two links and a couple comments. First keep in mind most of the 'chemicals' they are pumping down there are nothing more than proppants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ ... _proppants Basically small pieces of sand, ceramic, or other material that is designed keep the fractures open after the pressure is released. These are usually coated, using a proprietary process, to allow for a maximum amount of porosity and permeability in between the particles. This lets more fluid (gas) flow through the medium. There's companies specifically devoted to making these proppants and they've put a lot of research and money into them. That is why they were granted exemption from disclosing what is being put down the well. There are other chemicals too, but keep in mind there's now a Texas law that does offer disclosure of those chemicals to the public.

The ironic thing is most of the water that is extracted from normal oil wells has WAY more dangerous chemicals that are naturally present in every oil well around the world. All of that water either has to be purified to EPA standards before it can be loosed in the normal waterways or if possible it is usually pumped back down into the well where it came from.

There's really only one actual study being done on the environmental effects of hydraulic fracturing. It's a HUGE study being done by the EPA and it's not complete at this time. There's still a lot of data being analyzed. One of my professors is actually on that Research Advisory Panel working on that.
http://www.epa.gov/hfstudy/

The simple fact is fracturing is not going away. The US economy is already dependent on it.

Now, if you want a really good viewpoint of the whole processes, good and bad, then here's a good detailed description of the process for anyone interested (it's an hour long, so plan accordingly). It's by a Professor of Petroleum Engineering from the University of Texas. He also talks about the Gasland 'lighting the water on fire' thing at around the 50 minute mark.

 

[camstory]

Thank you Jerry, I am willing to believe gasland is slanted and made with some aim at entertaining/shocking/upsetting. To what degree I hope watching your vid will help me understand. That it does to any degree is a real shame, and something I really hate about 95% of all doc's these days. There was a time when watching a documentary was not so interesting in some ways, (though I stay interested where many do not.) but it was a much purer journalistic look at a thing. Now you have to watch 1or2 from both points of view and guess at what the truth is somewhere in the middle. It too bad really, that it has become much harder to sort out the entertainment/spin from the fact.

What you, or anyone else will have a hard time, (I'm thinking prolly impossible), convincing me of is that there is any possible good, or any at all, reason to exempt this industry, or anyone from being regulated by the clean water, and clean air acts. And for me there is absolutely no arrangement to be made that involves the discussion of the economy, or the need to be more self reliant from foreign power, that works. I am not typical that way I know, but for me the environment will in ALL cases be more important than any matters of money. I guess that may be one thing I my self am willing to admit I see with the prospective of a fanatic. If given the choice I would rather see the complete collapse of the U.S. economy, and everything that would bring, than allow any one to be exempted from the clean air & water acts.

But again thank you for the vid, I will watch now and the perspective of what I think will be a more fact based POV.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Thank you Jerry, I am willing to believe gasland is slanted and made with some aim at entertaining/shocking/upsetting. To what degree I hope watching your vid will help me understand. That it does to any degree is a real shame, and something I really hate about 95% of all doc's these days. There was a time when watching a documentary was not so interesting in some ways, (though I stay interested where many do not.) but it was a much purer journalistic look at a thing. Now you have to watch 1or2 from both points of view and guess at what the truth is somewhere in the middle. It too bad really, that it has become much harder to sort out the entertainment/spin from the fact.

What you, or anyone else will have a hard time, (I'm thinking prolly impossible), convincing me of is that there is any possible good, or any at all, reason to exempt this industry, or anyone from being regulated by the clean water, and clean air acts. And for me there is absolutely no arrangement to be made that involves the discussion of the economy, or the need to be more self reliant from foreign power, that works. I am not typical that way I know, but for me the environment will in ALL cases be more important than any matters of money. I guess that may be one thing I my self am willing to admit I see with the prospective of a fanatic. If given the choice I would rather see the complete collapse of the U.S. economy, and everything that would bring, than allow any one to be exempted from the clean air & water acts.

But again thank you for the vid, I will watch now and the perspective of what I think will be a more fact based POV.

I think you'll find he does cover both sides of the issues rather fairly. Unlike the documentaries out there he tends to put the facts into more of a perspective to other things that happen every day. Like the amount of water used for fracturing. Yes it's over a billion gallons. But it's also less than 1% of the local city's water usage for all the residents, or less than golf courses use in california. Puts it into a little fairer perspective.

I know it's not going to convince everyone, especially if they have their mind already made up. But it does give a pretty fair and balanced account of what's really going on. I look forward to hearing what you think.

 

[camstory]

Thank you Jerry, I am willing to believe gasland is slanted and made with some aim at entertaining/shocking/upsetting. To what degree I hope watching your vid will help me understand. That it does to any degree is a real shame, and something I really hate about 95% of all doc's these days. There was a time when watching a documentary was not so interesting in some ways, (though I stay interested where many do not.) but it was a much purer journalistic look at a thing. Now you have to watch 1or2 from both points of view and guess at what the truth is somewhere in the middle. It too bad really, that it has become much harder to sort out the entertainment/spin from the fact.

What you, or anyone else will have a hard time, (I'm thinking prolly impossible), convincing me of is that there is any possible good, or any at all, reason to exempt this industry, or anyone from being regulated by the clean water, and clean air acts. And for me there is absolutely no arrangement to be made that involves the discussion of the economy, or the need to be more self reliant from foreign power, that works. I am not typical that way I know, but for me the environment will in ALL cases be more important than any matters of money. I guess that may be one thing I my self am willing to admit I see with the prospective of a fanatic. If given the choice I would rather see the complete collapse of the U.S. economy, and everything that would bring, than allow any one to be exempted from the clean air & water acts.

But again thank you for the vid, I will watch now and the perspective of what I think will be a more fact based POV.

I think you'll find he does cover both sides of the issues rather fairly. Unlike the documentaries out there he tends to put the facts into more of a perspective to other things that happen every day. Like the amount of water used for fracturing. Yes it's over a billion gallons. But it's also less than 1% of the local city's water usage for all the residents, or less than golf courses use in california. Puts it into a little fairer perspective.

I know it's not going to convince everyone, especially if they have their mind already made up. But it does give a pretty fair and balanced account of what's really going on. I look forward to hearing what you think.

Just spent about 2 hours writing a reply. A reply I thought was very good. I lost it when made to sign back in. I am now very pissed at myself for not saving it. I have to go do something else now but may return to this in a while.

 

[JerryBoBerry]

Hate when that happens. Usually when I write a long reply now I do it in Word then copy paste it in. Just in case the browser messes up I save what little is left of my sanity.

 

[camstory]

Thank you Jerry, I am willing to believe gasland is slanted and made with some aim at entertaining/shocking/upsetting. To what degree I hope watching your vid will help me understand. That it does to any degree is a real shame, and something I really hate about 95% of all doc's these days. There was a time when watching a documentary was not so interesting in some ways, (though I stay interested where many do not.) but it was a much purer journalistic look at a thing. Now you have to watch 1or2 from both points of view and guess at what the truth is somewhere in the middle. It too bad really, that it has become much harder to sort out the entertainment/spin from the fact.

What you, or anyone else will have a hard time, (I'm thinking prolly impossible), convincing me of is that there is any possible good, or any at all, reason to exempt this industry, or anyone from being regulated by the clean water, and clean air acts. And for me there is absolutely no arrangement to be made that involves the discussion of the economy, or the need to be more self reliant from foreign power, that works. I am not typical that way I know, but for me the environment will in ALL cases be more important than any matters of money. I guess that may be one thing I my self am willing to admit I see with the prospective of a fanatic. If given the choice I would rather see the complete collapse of the U.S. economy, and everything that would bring, than allow any one to be exempted from the clean air & water acts.

But again thank you for the vid, I will watch now and the perspective of what I think will be a more fact based POV.

I think you'll find he does cover both sides of the issues rather fairly. Unlike the documentaries out there he tends to put the facts into more of a perspective to other things that happen every day. Like the amount of water used for fracturing. Yes it's over a billion gallons. But it's also less than 1% of the local city's water usage for all the residents, or less than golf courses use in california. Puts it into a little fairer perspective.

I know it's not going to convince everyone, especially if they have their mind already made up. But it does give a pretty fair and balanced account of what's really going on. I look forward to hearing what you think.

You know Jerry I find it hard to argue with anything the professor says. What I worry about, are the circumstances that do not fall with in the guides of normal operating procedure. My father worked for a company that serviced the power industry to a great deal. They did Non-destructive testing of power plants. Everything from oil refineries to nuclear power plants. I know that there were times when the testing guidelines were not followed to the strict letter. This happened when a section of pipeline was found to have bad welds and subsequent welds that were hard to access would be "paper whipped" and written up to be bad. This was in the testing of oil refineries. I witnessed the same sort of thing first hand when working for my fathers company as a helper. We were doing hull thickness reading on four ships mothballed that were being considered as an acquisition by a cargo shipping line. We, (the workers) knew what the shipping company was looking for in hull thickness, and more than once when faced with the removal of a rusted deck plate, on a ship we had tested enough to know it was not going to be acceptable, did in fact record what made sense, or was our best guesstimatetion, for the hard to access spot.

Knowing this, I once asked me father, (who at the time was nearing retirement, and a level 3 data analyst on eddie current testing of nuke plants) if this ever happened in the testing of nuke plants? My father said as far as he knew, it did not. He explained that it was not that it made any less sense or was in some way more inherently dangerous to do so in the testing of a nuke plant, (once 20% of the tubes in a nuke plant heat exchanger are found to be 80% deteriorated, ((fishers in the tube wall thickness)) that exchanger has to be re-cored, regardless), but that it did not happen, because the regulation and oversight of the NRC were such that to do so would be more work than to do the required testing.

I know what seeps are, and have witnessed them myself. A natural venting of gases, (and/or liquids) from underground sources to the surface. I am sure that shallow water aquifers, (75'-200') are often polluted by these seeps. What I worry about is that not all of these cases of pollution of natural gas, (documented in gaslands), are from seeps. I worry that some may be the result of mid-upper level management cutting corners and trying something like running a second frac bore at 800' above the original bore at 2000' in the hope to get more production from the site. And perhaps that is not even a realistic scenario, but my point is that, things do not always go the way there are meant to when there is not proper oversight. I fear the exemptions that have been made, leave room for the power industry to work outside of what it is meant to, and that not all the examples given in Gaslands should be so easily dismissed as having no relevance.